Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nagasiva yronwode) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.consciousness.mysticism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.magick.tantra Subject: Tantric Salvation, Progress (was Tantra:the cult of ecstacy) Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),http://www.sonic.net Lines: 102 Sender: yronwode@sonic.net Message-ID: <8v5rb9$462@bolt.sonic.net> References: <8u4bkf$lid$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3a0e4858.5241615@news.alt.net> Reply-To: spam@luckymojo.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.4 (NOV) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 12:04:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.224.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 974549055 208.201.224.36 (Sat, 18 Nov 2000 04:04:15 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 04:04:15 PST Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:26006 alt.consciousness.mysticism:45114 alt.religion.sexuality:42215 alt.magick.tantra:17149 50001118 Vom catyananda om namah catyananda uncited: >> Tantra means "the scientific cult which provides ample scope for >> all-round expansion in human life and thus paves the way for the >> attainment of salvation". "scientific cult"? strange. no mention of mysticism. hippyhalloween@iamawitch.com: > What would salvation mean to a Tantric? Would this be Brahmin-Atman? to respond to your queries I must qualify what I am to say by indicating to you that I am not a part of traditional Indian Tantric lineages and cannot answer for them, only from my own instruction outside them: to me "salvation" means reconciled with the fluctuating dynamic of the cosmic FUCK. the "brahman-atman" of which you are speaking is a particular cosmological picture that may or may not serve any specific student. usually 'moksha' or liberation within yogic traditions seems to have some kind of psychospiritual significance (i.e. they pursue it as a metaphor for perfecting one's relationship with the entirety of the cosmos as in living 'in' the world but not unbalanced by it) or it relates to the cosmology presented by countless centuries of Indian history: the wheel of rebirth; levels of existence; liberation as a cessation of rebirth achieved through mystical practices. >> one who is a real spiritual aspirant must not allow any >> sort of complex to develop in one's mind. Any sort of complex >> -- superiority complex, inferiority complex, fear complex, >> defeatist complex, hopelessness -- is detrimental to spiritual >> progress. spiritual complex? :> > What would be considered "spritual progress" in the Tantric > point of view, again, speaking for myself only: * spirituality is a process by which the subjective state is improved over time; experience is intensified, response to phenomena is generally more positive; a greater amount of energy may be available to the adept by virtue of a generally more inspired and enjoyable life; 'practice' is the means by which such improvement in the subjective state is attained. * disciplines and enjoyments are the mechanisms that make up 'practice', whether these consist of repeated or unique events (ordeals, celebrations); disciplines tend to be restrictive, ascetic; enjoyments are rarely described as spiritual mechanisms except by neo-Tantrics or New Agers, though these tend toward exploratory, indulgent. * 'spiritual progress' is a SUSTAINED improvement in subjective experience; it is difficult to measure except by an aware individual or by someone very close to the student who is familiar with the signs. > and how does this relate to the traditional Hindu concepts of > karma, and a persons dharma? -- karma -- "action"; there are two modes of relation with respect to action: dedicated action and non-action; dedicated action is the accumulation of 'good karma', and is typically selfless service such as work for a charity, one's community, or the benefit of others; non-action (cf. Chinese 'wu-wei') is the termination or dissolution of karma, and this is generally achieved through some kind of mystical practice (such as meditation). -- dharma -- "law"; this term is understood in a multitude of ways; in relation to the possession of a single individual, one's dharma is akin to one's 'destiny', 'best possible course', or 'way'. spiritual progress tends to proceed through the two stages -- dedicated action (often 'karma yoga') and non-action, though this can of course vary. as one's adeptship increases, strictly egocentric activity is left behind for holistic experience in which the ego is integrated into circumstance (described as effortless action or actionless action -- the dishes wash). one's dharma is the way into which one grows as one progresses, it is the particular combination of practices which infuse life and become indistinguishable from ordinary behaviour. without sufficient ballast in indulgence, extreme asceticism can lead to comparable traps as those described by extreme indulgences (debauch, lassitude, self-delusion, etc.). blessed beast! nagasiva -- FREE HOODOO CATALOGUE! send street address to: catalogue@luckymojo.com mailto:nagasiva@luckymojo.com ; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html ; mailto:boboroshi@satanservice.org ; http://www.satanservice.org/ emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired