Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Newsgroups: alt.polyamory,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.tantra,alt.recovery.religion,sci.psychology.meta,alt.religion.sexuality Subject: Re: Sex, Love, and Jealousy (Was: Re: Zen Love) Date: 28 Feb 1996 12:36:32 -0800 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 129 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4h2ecg$qj5@jobe.shell.portal.com> References: <0099DAAB.730C8C9C@pomona.edu> <4fpj2t$csp@muffin.pronet.com> <4fq734$fpb@motown.coast.net> <4fvul2$ges@panix.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.polyamory:39166 alt.magick.tyagi:6900 alt.magick.tantra:763 alt.recovery.religion:10121 alt.religion.sexuality:11256 kaliyuga 49960228 tonight ends normal time, into the Eris Zone Jennie Dailey-O'Cain : |>|...I suppose I would if one of my partners broke one of our agreements, |>|but then I'd be getting angry about that, and not about the same thing |>|I would be getting jealous about. Perhaps it is the exascerbation of anger on *account* of jealousy (i.e. inspiring greater iciness or acidity than the norm for the relationship on account of feelings of deprivation or competition) that is meant here. |>|...a lot of people think they don't feel jealous because they think of |>|jealousy as a very narrow emotion. .... I'm not sure it is an emotion at all. I think it may be a conditioned emotional complex. That is, it is a cluster or sequence (sometimes even a cycle) of emotional responses to relationship circumstances (feeling threatened, violated, all kinds of real and important experiences). |>|...they think of jealousy as negative, ... Jealousy is negative, in that it is more painful to us than pleasurable, and can be an effective barometer of our life stresses, as can all very painful emotional states like fear and sadness. This doesn't mean they have to rule our lives or that they can't in many cases be adjusted through gradual and persistent self-conditioning or counseling. |>|..."Oh, I'm not jealous, I'm ______". (Fill in the blank with |>|"melancholy", "uncomfortable", "jealous of your time" ..."scared", |>|"nervous", "upset", "worried", .... I've mostly heard 'sad' and 'scared'. I have never appreciated what I associated with 'catty' or 'petty jealous bickering'. It was something I have always detested and sought to remove from my presence. Usually I think of jealousy as a fear-response to the perception of a threat to an intimate relationship. Fear-responses can produce the fight (anger) or flight (fear) duo as well as trigger some very intense feelings of abandonment (can seem just like when we were little kids; we still are). |>|When I get jealous, I get all of those things, but I never get angry. I don't often any more either. I think it is a symptom of certain levels of or responses to maturity. Some people *need* to get angry before they can fully heal. For others, lack of anger can mean an 'old soul', or an experienced heart. It appears to vary based on person and circumstances. |>|...jealousy is a complex emotion, I'd call it an emotional complex, yes. |>|and it's very different for different people. Is it really? I haven't heard of many large differences in response. |>|But if it has one necessary component, that component isn't *anger*, |>|it's *fear*. I tend to associate anger with fear as a basis, even in feelings of betrayal or violation I think the anger becomes the reverted fear which was once repressed, now manifested as an expression of violence itself (making possible the chain of abuse; like a bouy wobbling back and forth in the ocean after a seagull has taken off from her, violating first one part, then another, of her surroundings before resettling to complacency or satisfaction). |>|(Anyone here ever been jealous without being afraid?) Yes, I have. I was angry over some slight I'd interpreted my lover to have made to me, mostly due to my oversensitivity while being in the presence of someone to whom I knew she was attracted. I think these things can sneak up on one, and that, for polyamorous relationships to flourish, we must come to see such eruptions of anger and fear to be symptoms of healing, opportunities moreso than problems, even when we can't be near to them on account of our hypersensitivity. It is also possible to repress emotions (I didn't feel the fear I now believe to have been operating when I experienced that anger mentioned above), and so coming to understand ourselves and our lovers, emotionally, can take some patience and, if we've got it in us, forgiveness. |Jealousy for me: Physical pain and hollowness in my stomach, great |agitation, inability to sit still or get to sleep. A yearning to be |with the person, inability to get my mind off of them. Total blindnes |to any signal to go away other than direct verbal instruction. Raw |emotional pain. Wonderful reflection. For me it includes deep sadness about what another has called 'being left out' and what my lover (the Abyss) calls 'feeling deprived'. It can include fear, but mostly it seems to be a pain-reaction to attachment, a sort of bifurcational torment brought on by lack of perspective and restimulated emotional trauma. |Thinking back on it, I can imagine the mental jujitsu of turning it |into anger, but I think completeing that process would require me to |physically hurt somebody, or at least smash every object I could get |my hands on. I agree with you very much here and tend to reject the notion of finding someone to make wrong for the situation and take out my wrath upon them. That doesn't mean I can't be angry at or with them, sometimes even showing them my anger in ways which prove meaningful and peaceful. This has (when I've been able to muster the courage) proven quite a useful line of approach for me. Then again, I change alot. There were times when only going out innto the wilderness and belting posts with sticks would soothe my furies. ;> |I hope that I can avoid every feeling it on that scale again. May your waters prove as peaceful as you need them to be. tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com nagasiva -- To ensure my response CC all public replies to email (READ alt.magick.tyagi) (emailed replies may be posted) * http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html INTENTIONAL .SIG PROTEST: FUCK SHIT PISS COCKSUCKER MOTHERFUCKER TITS CUNT