Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nagasiva yronwode) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.tantra,alt.sex.wizards,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.magick.sex,alt.consciousness.mysticism,talk.religion.misc Subject: Tantra: Scams or Misunderstood Business? (was some TANTRA scams ...) Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),http://www.sonic.net Lines: 374 Sender: yronwode@sonic.net Message-ID: <8t3c1h$b57@bolt.sonic.net> References: <39DF76FD.443E@luckymojo.com> Reply-To: spam@luckymojo.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.4 (NOV) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 06:54:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.224.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 972370462 208.201.224.36 (Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:54:22 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:54:22 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:25786 alt.magick.tantra:16777 alt.sex.wizards:175534 alt.religion.sexuality:42075 alt.magick.sex:87001 alt.consciousness.mysticism:44539 talk.religion.misc:326456 50001023 kaos kaos kaos, aidikdkay! mar: >> TANTRA and sensuality in NYC and California is mostly dead.... was it ever alive? if so, in what form? you mention earth mother types of the 1980s. what were you interactions with these women like? what did they say their role was and what did you request? >> ...The real honest Tantra teachers are few and rare these days. were they ever not rare? if so, who were they? if you don't know, then with whom are you comparing them? >> ...eating her period blood (am not making this up ? I was shocked) sri catyananda : > Well, eating period blood is non-shocking to me, but your > background may be different... :-) my impression is that tantra of many sorts include what would seem shocking to the faint of heart and contributes to what is called 'deconditioning', extending one's predilections beyond bias toward intentionality. >> asked her how much she charged and she told me that her rate was 500$ >> for 2 hours ? she lives out in Arizona somewhere ? and I don?t know >> about you, but 500$ for two hour of Tantra is considered expensive >> even in NYC. She then went on to say that she only starts to get more >> intimate after the 10th session ? so that?s like $5000 wasted for what? presume that tantra will be instructed for free and it will not include direct sexual interaction (probably avoid sexuality at all within the instruction). this is the safest course for even neo-tantric education, because the emotional manipulation possible within a contractual sexual relationship, especially where the instruction includes learning to see your partner as a manifestation of the divine or as the entirety of the divinity, is simply beyond the capacity of most students to handle. those who choose to accept this sort of challenge best do so with a healthy background in ascetic disciplines and a decent study of both depth psychology and deception schemes (confidence games, sham mysticism). >Well, some prostitutes would rather sell porn videos than have sex with >strangers. So what? true, they are setting their boundaries using their hourly rate. >> ...Laurie Handlers from Washington DC .... is cool ...and she can be >> trusted. She ...is a teacher instead of a high tect Tantra harlot. "high tech tantra harlot" is a new category on me. it sounds rather overly simplistic, based on your descriptions of many women as being phoneys for deciding on their boundaries using monetary rates. I'm not sure why honest mystics could not use these same tactics, though exhorbitant prices should also be a kind of red flag indicating the possibility of charlatanry. what I'd prefer to see, in a review of what these people are offering is what they are teaching the GOAL of their instruction includes. if they are offering ecstatic experiences or good sex or something and calling this 'tantra', then you can hardly hold them responsible for providing some kind of substantial mystical instruction or for giving you a linkage to ancient Indian traditions. >> Laurie basically told me that NYC tantrikas like Jewel, Carla >> Tara (Tarantola) [,] although her friends, ...basically hate men. that is important information, if true. again, what they may be presuming to supply might be more important in assessing them than their attitude toward men. my impression is that there are a good number of sex-workers who are attempting to earn their living from the desparity of sexual freedom and education by providing limited experiences to men and charging for the privilege of their time, figuring that it is their due as women. some of these women do seem to dislike men or consider them to be inferior to them, though I'm sure not all of them do. this seems to extend fairly obviously into the BDSM sex working field, where the biases against men can even take quite physical manifestations (one might argue in a strangely consensual circumstance as the men may be asking to be hurt). >> I found out the hard way with Jewel after being scammed by her >> (she had BO) your assessment that she had body odor is indicative to me that you may benefit from sex education moreso than what I (or apparently many traditional tantrics, not that I am one) would call 'tantric instruction'. most people (especially those of certain genetic strains) produce certain chemicals and serve as a breeding ground for microscopic life forms that contribute to body odor. some tantric masters might look and smell rather horrible to you. this appearance is not necessarily a good way to judge their value to you, depending on what you're trying to learn. even a sex instructor may attempt to break you of an aversion to body odor (or inform you that body odor can be a very wonderful aphrodisiac and compatability indicator). Madison Avenue (corporate culture) promotes the idea of squeaky clean, antiseptic human interaction. juicy living can be less expensive and more enjoyable than these hucksters would have you believe. >> and she was another hippie chick tease artiste who used a lot >> of fancy words?you get the picture. I gather that you do not think that there was any substance behind what she was saying. what kinds of fancy words was she using? what was it that you were trying to learn from her? >> I spoke to Carla and she was another gold digger wanting >> hundreds of dollars for work with me and my wife. it sounds like you have a particular monetary range in mind and have specific ideas about what you want done ("work with you and your wife"). if you specified what you want and what you'd like to put into getting it, then it is possible that you'll be able to more easily find what you're seeking (or at least learn how your expectations may be unreasonable). > At this point i wonder why you were contacting porn sites and NYC > prostitutes in your search for tantric instruction. perhaps because mar identified tantra instruction with sex service. or perhaps he is looking for sex education or, as he indicated, some kind of therapy. > If you wanted a nanny to care for your child, would you go to an > escort service that speciallized in spanking-nanny scenes or > would you go to a regular employment agency? this seems somewhat extreme. if one was unsure what the realm of sex instruction should contain and where it could be obtained, then one might go to those who *provide* sexual experiences without real instruction (go to the fish market for produce, if you excuse any untoward implications of this analogy :>, rather than going to the fishing boats and their captains in order to learn how to fish) instead of seeking out true teachers (since both of them might use the catch-word 'tantra' to advertize). >> ...she was also a sham and big time scammer. She wanted over >> 150$ to just speak to me regarding what I wanted for a possible >> [apparently "session"] with my wife and her. This was just >> for the info. She wanted over 450 dollars for a one hour massage. > The use of the word "session" in regard to "tantra" is a code-word in my > experience for "a scene in which the hired sex-worker will perform the > role of a Hindu goddess or harem-girl." agreed. also, I'm not sure that high rates = "scam". it might just indicate that the sex-worker is trying to achieve a certain standard of living or appealing to a certain class of clientele. as I see it, there is no crime in any person setting their hourly rates, whether they are instructing sexuality or providing sexual services. a true "scam" would be someone claiming to provide one thing and then actually providing something less valuable or nothing at all. far better to make the world so full of sex that charging high prices would be laughed at. ;> >> HELP! Please NYC sensualists let pool our minds together and find >> outlets for good healthy spiritual sensuality in NYC. NO sex! This is >> more about touch, vision, and feeling good with other people that can >> be your friends. this sounds like you're seeking a sex-counselling network. my impression is that there are indeed groups who function in this way. one with which I am familiar (but cannot recommend beyond saying that there are very caring and sensitive individuals who are a part of its programs) is called "Human Awareness Institute (HAI)". its founder, Stan Dale, came across to me as a radio announcer turned guru (which in fact he seems to be!), but there are many within the HAI community that have values and commitment to healthy spirituality quite aside from mercantile persuation. their rates were beyond what I had an interest in paying, though I've known others who negotiated service or trade for the intuition/fees. >> Sorry but I want to know the same thing! In New York City one has to >> be very careful when they are seeking Tantra or a therapeutic >> senuality. from "tantra" to "spiritual sensuality" to "therapeutic sensuality". it is very difficult to identify, based on the range of your expression, really what you're after. let me attempt to explain for you the range of options you may be seeking when asking about "tantra" in this way: a) tantra as expert sexual service -- (this is the community you seem to be searching within that for what you desire); this community uses tantra as a code word to mean: sexually-expert, capable of providing ecstatic experiences for which you can expect to pay commensurate with both reputation and claims about the quality of service seldom is there any connection with anything Indian, specifically spiritual in a conventional sense, other than what might by hedonists be regarded as desirable, or even what would be considered 'instruction' except rudimentary sex education. b) tantra as sex education -- this community tends to avoid the term 'tantra' excepting in neo-tantric seminars (e.g. The Muirs) which integrate some concept of spirituality with with sex such that the two tend to become synonymous. generally the term 'tantra' can mean any number of things, inclusive of 'spiritual sex', 'sexual spirituality' and 'sex mysticism'. there is, within this neo-tantric community, seldom any deep or longstanding connection to Indian mysticism OR, necessarily, with any reputable educational facility (e.g. the Society for Human Sexuality, which may be found at http://www.sexuality.org/). c) tantra as sex therapy -- generally this community eshews the term in accredited programs because it tends to confuse the therapeutic process and there is a clear recognition that the term is more appropriately applied to mystical processes surrounding Indian traditions, or novel forms of sex education and what might be called neo-tantric social groups. within the more New Age sex therapies that do include the term it is likely to mean 'sensitive sex instruction with attention to serious psychological barriers to healthy enjoyment of sexuality', and this can include almost any kind of well-known and/or sham therapeutic technique. d) tantra as sexual spirituality -- as mentioned above concerning sex education, this tends not to be associated deeply with Indian traditions and will more often apply to what are at least within this forum referred to as neo-tantra. the term approaches or reflects the more common usage found within traditional Indian mysticism, sometimes drawing from popular and even reputable scholarly texts or the works of popular Indian gurus/yogis/sadhus as to some of the ideas and practices surrounding the term's application. instruction by authorities in such a context will be of variable quality depending upon the specific spiritual condition and awareness of the teacher in question and their skill at instruction. perhaps it goes without saying that many teachers use the lure of any of the above alternative meanings of 'tantra' to secure interested students. some charge comparable fees to sex workers, though may stipulate restricted boundaries or instruct within the confines of seminars or workshops that may or may not provide the opportunity for individuals to obtain what they are seeking. e) tantra as sex mysticism -- comparable to d) above, those who profess to instruct sex mysticism are more likely to maintain some degree of prestige or social adulation as a spiritual authority (inclusive of devotees, at times known as 'chelas'). some of these gurus will have connections to Indian mysticism (whether Hindu or Buddhist!) and a mediocre emphasis is actually placed upon strict physical sexuality, it seems, in proportion to its traditional connections, though of course there are always exceptions. the term 'tantra' within these communities will vary widely, though as with the spiritual groups, there is likely to be a greater focus on the etymological roots of the term itself (however well-founded, it can vary considerably!). what is instructed as tantra will of course depend upon the origins of the instructions and the goals envisioned by the guru(s). some will explain that the world is an illusion or trap from which the aspirant must escape, some will provide insight into how life can become a veritable heaven by virtue of learning to see sex in its proper perspective, some will instruct that sexuality is but a small but important (perhaps even advanced or specialized) part of tantric instruction, some will teach that sex is the veritable essence of what tantra includes, but not exactly the same as ordinary sexuality, etc., etc. typically, these mystics will include some kind of polar metaphysics, some connection with Indian terminology and mystical practices such as what they call 'pranayama' (discipline with respect to the breath), 'mantra' (chanting of sacred, often Sanskrit, syllables, words, and phrases), 'chakras' (psychospiritual 'energy' centers that are in some way affected by breathing and the the practice of mystical disciplines), 'karma' (some moral or practical principle of the cosmos which provides a framework for lifestyle and behavioral standards) and perhaps 'moksha' (escape or liberation from the cycle of rebirth). f) tantra as a kind of religion -- as above the term will vary somewhat, and the religion will take on different nuances depending on whether it originates in New Age, Buddhist, Hindu, or other communities. typically sexuality is considered a minor portion of these religious systems, sometimes even a reprehensible portion of a renegade sect. sometimes it is actively eshewed as confusing to the student or aspirant, or identified with less advanced practice. therefore, if you were looking for tantra as a kind of expert sexual encounter, you may have discovered those who were presenting as a different character of instructor, such as someone trying (however convincingly or with whatever authority) to get away with rudimentary sex education while charging exhorbitant prices. >> ...they don?t even allow you to climax. > Well, avoiding ejaculation is in keeping with some of the goals of > traditional Hindu tantra yoga, wouldn't you say? :-) seems to depend upon the sect. what is a tantrika? who are we to question the methods of the instructor? >> ...a scam like the Tantra session .... she massages you >> (very badly) and doesn?t provide a release, but for a >> hidden tip of 20 to 40 dollars she will put on a rubber >> glove and jerk you off or play with your prostate. this sounds like you were looking for category a). >> ...the real Tantra people don?t advertise. why not? >> ...??Real Tantra is not only about sex. SEX PLAYS A VERY >> SMALL PART IN IT! The American ?Tantra? people make it out >> to be this sexual thing when it is not, it?s about living >> a full life that?s all. The majority of all these books, >> teachers, and videos on Tantra in the US or UK are all very >> watered down versions of the real thing. Real Tantra master don?t >> advertise like these people do ? they find you or you find them and >> that is only when it is agreed that you will become a student and pass >> years of hard study and meditation with them. study of what? what is the meditation like? >> Tantra is fine for the Indian or Western who will devote years >> of study ? not for a one time fling with a wanna be.? my impression is that hard-core mysticism and one-time fling are merely intensifications of different aspects of experience. >> And real Tantra does not cost any money ? if you are paying thousands >> then you have been taken for a ride. Like Margot Anand who it has been >> reported people have paid in the thousands to attend a lecture or that >> Bohdi woman who charges you to learn the Cobra breath she writes a >> little about in her book. IT?S ALL TO HOOK YOU IN AND GET YOUR MONEY> >> >> ALAS, but the majority of these women are shysters, charlatans, and >> New Age crooks trying to give old fashioned prostitution a spin by >> calling it Tantra. >I agree. I'm not so sure. money is a means by which boundaries are made, challenges are engaged, and fradulence is demonstrated. without some generalized standard or specific indicator about what each was claiming, I'd be hard-pressed, based on merely these descriptions, to render an assessment as to whether or not they were shysters. if they are calling their expert sexual service tantra, then we may ask whether they actually provide what they advertize. if not, then it is valuable to make this known, as apparently you have been doing with some of these individuals. om namah kaliya! nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nagasiva)