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From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva)
Newsgroups: alt.yoga,talk.religion.newage,alt.consciousness,alt.magick.tantra,alt.sex.wizards,alt.religion.sexuality
Subject: Re: TANTRISM - attempt to an ovweview -1-
Date: 19 Dec 1995 13:25:45 -0800
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kaliyuga
49951219


Dinu Roman <dinu@aksi.net>:
#Some time ago I started a thread of discussion about tantrism (hindu), in my opinion 
# really misunderstood by many so-called practitioners. 

Perhaps the format you are using (perhaps 5-10 characters too long to be read
easily) has something to do with this.


[rest reformatted - in the future if you post scattered text I may omit it
 from my review of your materials]

#...I will attempt to cast a bird's eye view on this science.  

I will attempt to review it in order to bring out what I can see of its
tantric elements ('tantra' as I understand it, which transcends both
Hindu and Buddhist manifestations), as well as provide for you a
comparative view from a solitary monk (perhaps useless to you).


# I am talking about HINDU TANTRA. ...

So noted.  Removed Buddhist newsgroups from header, added sexuality-mastery
newsgroups.


# ...I don't really see a fundamental difference between hindu and 
# tibetan / buddhist tantra)

That is very interesting.  How much do you know of each beyond your
own tradition?


# TANTRISM is a system of Ideal Monism.  

As I come to know it, tantra is beyond the categories of theology or 
cosmology, focussing more on materiality and practical euphoria as
means of discovering transformation and integration with the world 
(society, nature, and anything else that may exist).


# Its central position is that there is only One Ultimate Principle, but 
# that this Principle has two aspects, one Transcendent, and the other 
# Immanent.  

Reminds me of Nagarjuna's 'two levels of truth' in Mahayana Buddhism.


# The Tantras explain in great detail the origin of Spirit and Matter;  
# they discuss the nature of the Ultimate Principle; and they explain the cause # of the Initial Impulse of Creation.

Fascinating.  So are you a Creationist like fundamental Christians and other
Western religious, or do you favor the more Indian cyclical cosmologies?
I personally find it amusing but unimportant whether 'this world' was
fabricated by some transcendental archon or came into being just a moment
ago in response to my whim.


# TANTRA deals with the different aspects of the Supreme Consciousness and 
# practical ways to experience them.

From what you've said about Siva, this indicates a Siva-focus on your part,
no?  I think you've mentioned to me in private that you are a Saivite, so
I guess I just wondered whether the Saivism and consciousness focus were
coincident.


# There is no body of traditional literature that has suffered such 
# widespread criticism, from Western and Eastern scholars alike, as 
# the Tantras, due mainly to their highly esoteric character which 
# made it impossible for non-practitioner scholars to obtain adequate 
# information of their true content and to have a deep understanding, 
# through direct experimentaion, of their teachings..  

Really?  Even compared to the Western Hermetic Tradition?  What exactly
qualifies as 'traditional literature' here?  Would the writings of those
such as Gurdjieff, Osho or Crowley qualify?  If so, are these not more
often condemned by 'academics'?


# TANTRA considers the Universe as being a MAGICAL REALITY, in 
# contradistinction with VEDANTA, which says Universe is an illusion (MAYA).

[and from further down]
# The TANTRAS accept the VEDAS and are in no way hostile to the Six Darshanas.  

Interesting, so as it manifested in India it appears to have taken on a
rather polar relationship with the monists of another tradition: Vedanta.
I'd be curious to hear what you think of Vedanta's 'One Underlying God'
concept and how this differs from your own (if it does).

I find the idea that cosmology may be somehow 'correctly viewed' in the
absolute sense to be fallacious and revolting.  All coherent perspectives 
on the cosmos are valuable and in their context valid.

I'd like to hear more about 'the Six Darshanas' and whether this is Buddhist
or Hindu in origin.


# TANTRAS deal with all subjects, from the creation of the universe to the 
# regulation of society, and they always have been the repository of 
# esoteric spiritual knowledge and practices, especially the spiritual 
# Science of Yoga.

You do not say whether the Tantras constitute the only scripture of your
tantric tradition or if there are other scriptures you accept as valid.

With Osho I do not find that association with any particular text is
very important in my tantric path.   More often I take them up and get
what I can from them and then occasionally return to them if they yield
valuable results in my application of their principles.


# The purpose of Tantrism is to provide a way for salvation of man during the 
# present age (KALI YUGA).  

Salvation from what?  Do you find that the Kali Yuga is in some measure
associated with the Indian goddess Kali?

My understanding is that tantra is a technology, an approach and attitude
to be utilized within life so as to mine the ecstasy from our hearts and
weave a majestic cloth of syncretic beauty from what remains of the
ravaging of our lifes within these very tumultuous times.


# ...mere philosophical specualtion on the Ultimate Nature of things is 
# not enough to satisfy the spiritual hunger of the soul, no more than 
# a description of a banquet is sufficient to satisfy the physical hunger 
# of the body.  

What does 'spiritual hunger of the soul' mean to you?  Isn't the fundemental
aspect of personal consciousness according to popular Indian esoterics what
is called 'the atman'?  Are you somehow saying that the atman hungers?


# [The Tantras] provide a rational foundation for the spiritual exercises 
# of the Yoga Science that will liberate man during ONE lifetime.  

What is liberation?  What are we to liberate ourselves *from*?


# These practices are referred as SADHANA, i.e. that successful practice 
# which leads to final emancipation of the soul.  

Emancipation from what state?  Delusion?  Sounds somewhat Vedantic or
Christian to me, so I'm asking questions.

My own tantra does not admit of any need for 'liberation' or 'emancipation'
at all.  No, we are perfect just as we are.  We are taught by society to
feel we need these things and they are the only shackles we may have.  This
world is perfect and we are it and of it (a mystical relation rendered
symbolic through the dictum 'as above, so below').


# The stated purpose of TANTRISM is to provide the spiritual dwarfs of 
# Kali Yoga with a means to use their overpowering obsessions and lower 
# passions as a spiritual rocket fuel and to sublimate their animal 
# tendencies into spiritual ecstasies.  

This is where I tend to break ranks with the tantric yogis I've heard
talk about their practices and theology.  I don't tend to separate the
cosmos into 'high' and 'low', 'hunan passions' and 'animal passions'.
These are the ravings of ascetic lunatics as I have been taught, and
are quite dangerous to those who are ecologically-minded.


# The very high teachings of the Golden Age of spirituality (SATYA YUGA) 
# are no longer practicable, nobody understands them deeply, they are just 
# dead letter.  

This is another part of the Indian cosmological system of which the Kali Yuga
is the last element of the cycle, apparently preceded by the Satya.  Why is
that yuga known as the 'Golden Age of Spirituality'?  How can you be sure
that anybody properly understand the Tantras?  Aren't these pretty old
documents?


# We are too feeble, too much the slaves of our senses to undertake the 
# austerities of self-discipline as spelled out in the prime VEDIC 
# scriptures.  

It is this kind of self-deprecation which I find burdensome, though I
understand that some find a need for it.


# For us a different manual of spiritual liberation, suited to our needs, 
# has been provided - The TANTRAS.  

and 

# There is no other way in Kali Yuga.

This smacks to me of very many other religious traditions which promote
their scriptures as 'The Answer' and I urge caution where it is concerned.
Too many times such schemes turn out to be enslavement mechanisms which
traditions such as Thelema are designed to short-circuit.


# The way provided by the TANTRAS must be the reintegration of the two 
# poles of being - Male (+), and Female (-).  

You said the two poles were the Transcendent and the Immanent.  How is
it, do you think, that these poles of being have become DISintegrated?

Sorry if you answer any/all of these queries in another post.  I am taking
them one at a time and then moving on to address what you've sent to me
via email.

Namah Kaliya,

nagasiva