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From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nagasiva yronwode)
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.tantra,alt.consciousness.mysticism,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.magick.sex
Subject: Unspeakable Tantra (was Tantra:the cult of ecstacy)
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50001105 Vom nama kaliya

lakeqi@my-deja.com:
> I just started reading a book called "tantra the cult of ecstacy" 
> i don't remember the authors name but its published by Hamlin.

I took a quick look on our shelves here at ArkaotikA and didn't see
it. there are many books with similar titles ("Tantra: the Cult of
the Feminine", recommended in the alt.magick.tantra FAQ, for example,
as well as "Tantra: the Indian Cult of Ecstasy", not published by
Hamlin from what I could tell, so I didn't look at its content).

> Its a pretty good book that goes into the ancient ties between india 
> and the ancient greeks, egyptians, and religions devoted to the Mother.
> too much entymology and not enough reference too specific sexual 
> practices and taboos but still a good book.

etymology. this seems to be a popular means (at least to begin) to
address the subject of tantra: by referring to the meaning of the 
term as a key to its understanding. the most direct way to explain
the subject as I see it is to talk about its practical aspects first, 
if possible, then its theoretical aspects which may be abstracted
from practice, elaborating on either with the significance of the
term if it applies. it largely depends on whether the lecturer feels
that one precedes the other and therefore requires primary attention.

the word's meaning may have persisted *despite* changes in that with
which it is associated, or be representative of the tradition that
uses it. whether it means or meant one thing or another wouldn't 
necessarily tell us what was encompassed by the word's modern usage.

> One complaint or question i have about the book is the contention
> regarding certain tantric passages refering to how one can recieve
> blessing by performing the most unspeakable of sexual acts -- for 
> example, to paraphrase, theres a passage that says that if one has 
> sex with ones mother daughter and sister one will certainly gain 
> immortality.
>
> The author shows how critics of tantra have taken such passages out of
> context -- she (i think a woman wrote it) contends that the passage 
> shouldnt be read literally, that it means we should make love to the 
> three worlds of heaven earth and hell -- i may have slightly mis-stated 
> her argument, but my main concern is that she thinks we shouldnt take 
> it literally.

I'll not attempt to answer for the author, but I'll suggest what I
understand has been of benefit in my life and how I have learned
from Kali.

> in my view the breaking of sexual taboos is indeed the way to eternal
> blessing -- by challenging the often arbitrary, and outdated laws of 
> man we find our true selves.

I don't think that merely transcending societal mores through challenge
and breakage is a formula for finding one's true self (granted that
such a thing exists). this true self may be covered up or formed through 
primary experiences, as our personality is shaped by initial living
conditions, nurturance and discipline, communication and modelling.
what constitutes the true vs. some kind of false self? what does the
destruction of societal conditioning achieve in the context of the
mature human being? the way that we answer these questions will
determine our approach to the whole subject of spiritual achievement.

the way I've found it valuable to view this situation and mysticism is 
that there are two poles of instruction being played out. on the one 
hand we learn about liberation, freedom, independence, power, knowledge, 
will; and on the other, safety, security, connection, stability, 
compassion, and love. the two tend to conflict one with the other, 
and a mixture of the two types of instruction used to apprehend these
qualities and experiences, enjoyment and discipline respectively,
can be very confusing to the child, unused to the world or its varied
extremes.

to the adult, however, focussing on one pole to the exclusion of the
other (say, for example, the taboo-breaking you mentioned) not only
depends for its results on the background of the individual involved
(someone without a great deal of security and stability might not be
assisted much by this kind of ordeal), but also on the relative set
and setting of the activity in question. how the experience is
integrated (whether as a single ordeal, as a fetish, or as a part of 
daily life) seems quite important to how it factors in as a ritual 
of growth and development (or, if unfortunate, as a debilitating
and denuding, corrosive torment).

in fact, I would suggest that the type of condition-breaking of which
you speak is only of value to those who have been heavily trained by
society such that the breakage of the expectation-duty mechanism may
reveal a more refined and integrated personality. those without such
training might break apart into debilitated, or worse, truly socio-
pathic behaviours which would serve no good purpose.

in the case about sex with one's relatives, it seems to me that what
is being implied by the suggestion could be INTENSIFIED beyond the
apparently limited perspective of the author so as to include not
only females but also males, other species, the dead, etc.  we could,
for example, be talking about necrophilia (at least necrophagia is
described of bodhisattvas like Padmasambhava and others), bestiality,
orgies, and any other variations on sexual activity as indicators of
immortality/enlightenment/illumination/liberation.

the more important point to be considered is whether activities are
confirmation of liberation or whether they are instead merely
symptoms. we are not told, for example, how the MOTHER, DAUGHTER 
AND SISTER OUGHT TO FEEL about these relations, under what 
circumstances they ought to have taken place, how old each of these
individuals ought be, etc., etc.  perhaps these details are, to the
author, irrelevant, or perhaps their omission is an indicator that
they ARE meant as an example or a metaphor (as you say the author
contends).

in fact there are those who suggest that the truly liberated do 
things that very many of us would consider to be evil (the
bodhisattva Padmasambhava, the lineage founder of Tibetan Buddhism,
also known as Vajrayana or Tantric Buddhism, is described in his 
biography by his disciple Yeshes Tsogyal as murdering people, even 
infants). whether they are provided some explanatory contextual 
description (such as in this biography that the murdered were 'repaid
for past karmic debts', etc.) says nothing about whether it would
be beneficial to have such an individual in one's presence, whether
one would wish to become such an individual, or whether they are
the best that humanity has to offer. in fact it might be quite
challenging or even deadly to encounter them due to their amorality.

> theres another passage where the tantric says that we should take a
> 16year old virgin and defile her in every immaginable way -- cover her
> with blood and excrement- and that this is also a way to attain
> blessings -- 

here we run into many problems due to societal and moral issues of
consensuality. is a 16 year-old capable of consent? laws in the
country in which I live say she is not. public opinion within this
same country (US) is more mixed on the matter, though the law is
upheld. quite beyond this we should ask why it is that the tantric
is not covering HIRSELF with these 'defilements' (organic fluids,
excretia, etc.), why it is that some human symbol of innocence and
purity is being used as a tool to obtain "blessings" through acts
of disrespect and defilement. surely this is some conceptual ordeal
or social conditioning that the tantric is attempting to address,
and as such it may not need to be engaged literally to be achieved.

let's say that the tantric used a picture of her instead. the idea,
it seems to me, is not too different than burning a wooden Buddha,
to take an example from Zen Buddhism. in this case the 'blessings'
the tantric is speaking of might be justifiable de-conditioning,
and the ritual of desecrating a symbol of purity may have quite
valuable counter-effects (what, in the Satanist community, is
usually classed as a 'Black Mass' as it relates to counter-
religious conditioning -- taken from the original libelous notion
of performing a travesty of the Roman Catholic Mass). 

> the author says that this shouldnt be taken literally -- i disagree 
> -- to me all consensual sexual ritual that flows from ones innermost 
> heart should be engaged in.

there's the problem. was what was described truly consensual? would
it benefit the 16 year-old girl to engage in such an act? would she,
for example, understand the reason for it and be compensated
adequately for allowing herself to be used in such a way by the
tantric? or would she merely be informed that her role was honorable
and that she was assisting in the liberation of some mystical adept?
would it leave her with some kind of disruptive psychic scar?

I agree with you that when mystical literature seems to prescribe
practical activity that we should consider it literally, but I do
wonder whether it might not be better to incorporate the IMPLICATION
of the recommendation in a less caustic act than defiling another
for one's own benefit. 

another suggestion I have would be considering just what such a 
"blessing" would convey to the tantric, whether this might be
achieved in other ways, what about the defilement of a girl
provides this, whether the tantric is mistaken and perverse, etc.

your mention of sexual ritual that flows from one's innermost
heart means a great deal to me. in general I'd agree with your
assertion, with possible exceptions where there may be costs
borne by others whose lives such a ritual might affect. the real
issue, from the perspective we seem to share here, is the practice
of de-conditioning and what types of activities it may include.
just taking it all metaphorically obviously will not address the
practical aspects that result (or at least are reputed as 
resulting) in liberation. it is my experience (and by your post
it would also seem to be yours) that 'unspeakable acts', which are
only unspeakable because they transgress nonviolent cultural
taboos, are valuably engaged by those whose conditioning includes
supportive love-based influences as well upon which to fall back.
 
> and the more offensive and revolutionary the better, with the education
> that we have today about how to prevent infection and pregnancy, we
> should throw out old taboos and let everyone find their own sexuality
> in the words of one part of the book- we should leave nothing
> unexperieinced

this is a valuable attitude to have as regards the breaking down
of obstacles to liberation. I would only caution that my 
understanding is that this is only PART of a valuable spiritual
or mystical education, and that an unbalanced emphasis on
liberation and freedom can make the student unfit for human
civilization (as stories about numerous ascetics make plain).

om nama sivaya

nagasiva
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