Path: typhoon.sonic.net!newsfeed2.skycache.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail
From: "Ned Ludd" <nedludd@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy,alt.zen
Subject: Re: Ignorance (was: The Fundamental Hangup)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:33:35 -0500
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <8qg8ls$jf3$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <8qfst3$gpo$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <39CB8D9C.6517@buddhist.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.8a.e9.55
X-Server-Date: 22 Sep 2000 18:33:32 GMT
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.buddha.short.fat.guy:137135 alt.zen:192635

AvStörenfried <hsuan@buddhist.com> wrote in message
news:39CB8D9C.6517@buddhist.com...

Ardie:
>> Nirvana is bliss - ignorance is the delusion that you're 'this' body.
>> How can that be blissful?

Ned:
> In its most essential form, ignorance is 'not knowing'.  Pure
> ignorance would not know that it was "this body", any more than
> it would know delusion from fact.

Ardie:
> But as you plop it down, this can't ameliorate suffering - hopefully
> to lead to a little sukha (bliss).  When one, out of ignorance,
> attempts to defend the body (skandhas) as "mine", this gives rise to
> hatred (hatred of those who attack me) and ends in furthering desire
> (craving the world of the skandhas, not knowing otherwise).  Thus,
> the three poisons continue - and suffering.
>

  When one, out of wisdom, attempts to denigrate the body (skandhas)
as "not mine" (i.e. not a creation of my own mind and delusions), this
gives rise to pride and arrogance that one is above or separate from
the things one has declared 'bad', furthering a hatred of the world,
and a desire to flee the world, in the ignorant belief that nirvana
can be found someplace "else" other than the world.  Thus, the three
poisons continue - and suffering.

                                                         Ned