Path: Supernews!kudonet.com!not-for-mail From: I@no.self (!) Newsgroups: alt.zen,alt.philosophy.zen,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.misc Subject: Re: Desire and Buddhism (was Re: Another simple question) Date: 15 Jun 1997 11:58:50 -0700 Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services Lines: 136 Sender: tyagi@bjt.net Message-ID: <5o1e1a$5nf@kudo20.kudonet.com> References: <3396EAC4.5473@mindspring.com> <5n7086$eel@news5-gui.server.cableol.net> <5n7clr$ooq$2@node2.frontiernet.net> <5nn5bd$j9e@kudo20.kudonet.com> <339FFE0F.2755@worldnet.att.net> <5npcet$cb2$1@brokaw.wa.com> <5nq1ko$4iv@kudo20.kudonet.com> <5nqvn8$3sd$1@brokaw.wa.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (!) NNTP-Posting-Host: kudo20.kudonet.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Xref: Supernews alt.zen:63798 alt.philosophy.zen:14911 talk.religion.buddhism:36948 alt.magick.tyagi:12876 alt.religion.buddhism:876 talk.religion.misc:297516 [apologies for length; the subject matter is imperative] wis@halcyon.com (Bill): ><>>Before one can be rid of desire, one must know what it is. I@no.self (!): ><>knowledge is not necessary in the development of mindfulness wis@halcyon.com (Bill): >True, but is there desire involved in mindfulness? desire is not something of which we may be 'rid', though craving, an attachment to the objects of desire, can be released and left behind. mindfulness brings comprehension of the uselessness of attachment in the context of no self and interdependent co-arising >Perhaps I should have written, "Awareness of desire is mindfulness" ? excellent, awareness is the natural product of mindfulness ><>>Why not look closely at desire and understand it intimately ><>>rather than desiring non-desire? ><>desiring non-desire is surely a knot-tying. looking closely is ><> surely the best practice. understanding is perhaps a bonus prize >Does looking closely bring understanding, or the ability to look even closer? it brings a comprehension of the fruitlessness of attachment to the objects of desire. desire all you want, seek after those objects if that is your motivation, yet without clinging to the objects of desire (craving), the dissatisfaction of life (dukkha) is extinguished (nirvana) ><>>(If you discover the essense of desire, please let me know if ><>> you've found it. I would be surprised.) ><>motivation is the co-arising of incentive by virtue of being part of ><> a whole. >...Motivation is a specific intention, an aim towards a certain direction, >a particular fragment of the whole. precisely, as inspired by being a part of the whole >It is a contradiction to aim towards the whole. who is aiming toward the whole? where is it said this should be the aim? >It's like saying "the universe is everything other than myself", when the >self is really just as much a part of the universe as everything else. except that 'the self' is a phantasm and thus ascribed 'motivation' when that incentive manifests in response to context and placement ><>'desire' is the localized identification of that motivation ><> within the sphere of perception; feeling the incentive which arises ><> as a natural consequence of interdependent origination >I take this to mean that there is a "center" from which is observed >the consequences of interdependence, a changing observer exists, yes >but is the observer (the center) really other than what is observed, >or is the observer actually what is observed? that depends on the focus of observation >In the practice of the Maha Mudra (Great Attitude), there is the analysis >of this (one can easily substitute the word "motivation" for "moving"): > With the intellect of the all-discriminating wisdom, born of > the quiescent state of non-cognition (or the indifference to > the arising and vanishing of thoughts), one observes: > What is the real nature of the mind when it is motionless? > How it remains motionless, > How it moves from the state of motionlessness, > When moving, whether it maintains its tranquility of motionlessness, > Whether it moves at all while maintaining the state of motionlessness, > Whether the "moving" is other than the "non-moving", > What is the real nature of the "moving" (thought), > And how the moving becomes the non-moving. motivation and thought are different classes of skandha. thought is a reflection of motivation. awareness of motivation comes as the latter is observed. 'moving' here denotes either the ordinary mind's thoughts or the absolute mind's ephemeral separate 'things', both of which are illusory in their independence and motion >One then comes to know that neither is the moving other than the >non-moving, nor the non-moving other than the moving. in an absolute sense, this is correct >If the real nature of the moving and the non-moving is not discovered >then one can observe: > Whether the intellect which is looking on is other than the moving > and the non-moving, or whether it is the very self of the moving > and the non-moving. motion and non-motion are distinctions of perceptual error from the standpoint of absolute truth. on a relative plain, however, motion is a substantive, if unreal phenomenon >Upon analyzing with the eyes of the self knowing intellect, >one discovers nothing, the observer and the thing observed >are found to be inseprable. >And because the real nature of this inseprableness cannot be >recognized, it is beyond mind. (dualism and non-dualism are >essentially non-dual) again, this is correct from the standpoint of absolute truth. what this says about the relative truth of the observation of motivation as it arises within the changing is ambiguous ><>therefore, to look for any sort of 'essence' of desire is to look for ><> shadows in a pitch black room. >Exactly! Therefore, if there is no essense of desire, how can one >be mindful of it? (which is what I meant by saying I would be >surprised if the essense of desire can be discovered.) the process of the arising of desire and the desire itself may be observed ><>the center of its source is everywhere, ><> the substance of its manifestion is a fluxuation of the skandhas >Perhaps, but then in what manner is this realized? through careful observation of the arising of desire. note that this is a DIFFERENT discipline than watching the arising of *attachment* to the objects of desire (tanha, craving), which may also be observed and this attachment released in favor of nirvana