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Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.philosophy.taoism,alt.zen,alt.pagan,alt.religion.wicca,alt.meditation.quanyin
Subject: Re: The Tao does not exist.
Date: 29 Apr 1996 22:41:36 -0700
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|>hammer.  nail.  how does one talk about the ineffable?

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSMMMMMMAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

|>|...if the Tao that can be named is <not> the true Tao, 

this is what Lao Tzu said in Tao Te Ching, yes

|>|then what are you ...Taoists calling Tao? 

we taoists are calling tao that which is the Mother of the
 10,000 things, the Named Tao of Antiquity and the Quean of
 Heaven;  Progenitrix of All Manifested Forms and Planes

|>in number theory, what is a random number?

a number which comes from outside the system of reference,
 as you explained regarding godel and language, beautiful

|>...how does one talk about the limitless, infinite, ineffable, 
|>unknown, unknowable?

::::handing you a flower::::

|>we all point our fingers at the moon.

::::hopping like a bunny::::

|>when is a horse not a horse?

when it becomes a white horse or a red horse instead of a broad category
 such as horse.  Fung Yu-lan explains very well in _A Short History of
 Chinese Philosophy_, though I hear there are other excellent sources also

|>|We know it means Way. Why is it not translated consistently? 

it cannot ever be translated accurately.  to limit its meaning to one
 particular correlate would be a travesty even the tao may never permit.
 how dare you suggest such a thing?

|>|Is it because 'Way' is not so easy to institutionalize? 

tao is ambiguous.  ambiguousness and uselessness does not make for good
 advertizing.  this is the benefit of movements such as concealed taoism
 and blatant satanism.  they seldom generate converts and thus this is
 one way to avoid problems in that area (discovery or revelation is a
 matter of personal choice and combined opportunity)

|>where does the deceptions [regarding 'the Way' and the 'mysterious
|>inscrutible East'] arise?  from the perceived or the perceiver?

I'll bet it arises from the ego, and I like that

|>...because of the subjective nature of perception, when can one say 
|>one has pierced the veil of mystery?  how does one know?

there is more than one veil.  sorry. :>
 sufis say 10,000 veils of Allah.  I'll bet the tao is little less

|>|But if we try to talk about something that cannot be named, and we look 
|>|first at what it actually <looks> like without a name, are we still going 
|>|to talk about it? If so, what are we going to talk about?

when I call you my friend and pat you fondly
 then I look across again and see someone else
 how will I refer to you, so changing a being?

this life is short indeed, we sparkle, july
 what matters the nickname for a friend as you?
 call you tao I shall, my lovely one

|>why is common sense so good?

brings common thought, agreement, action, discipline