Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.buddha.short.fat.guy,alt.zen,alt.philosophy.zen,alt.magick.chaos,talk.religion.newage Followup-To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.buddha.short.fat.guy,alt.zen,alt.philosophy.zen,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.buddhism Subject: Illusory Suffering? (was Buddha's Dark ...) References: <2847gugka01jr4nb15inl507akhm9c3au4@4ax.com> <5EOM8.109$mM1.2973@news.get2net.dk> From: i@no.self (|) Reply-To: nagasiva@yronwode.com User-Agent: nn/6.6.0 Lines: 41 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 03:46:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.242.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1023939984 208.201.242.18 (Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:46:24 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:46:24 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:33031 alt.buddha.short.fat.guy:203551 alt.zen:305988 alt.philosophy.zen:95244 alt.magick.chaos:40427 talk.religion.newage:152227 les diaboliques : |# All that was was the illusion of enlightenment, not the "real thing". |# That's where you are, that's the mistake you've made. This will be |# difficult for you to accept. denying target never reached |# But consider: suffering is *not* an illusion, suffering is real. real lasts, suffering is temporary; mistake suffering for reality and chase own tail "Anders Honore" : | My immediate feeling as well: Suffering. People often ask why a | Bodhisattva should try and liberate sentient beings when none | actually exist, since it's all illusionary. denying their existence is criminal. acknowledging their relative impermanence amongst other changing things is wisdom | My answer is just suffering. "why" implies cause-effect belief. to ask it is to ask what brings about the activity of mystics, elect saviours of the cosmos. if speaking of Buddhism, it is well-known that Buddha's instruction sequence was suffering-craving-cessation-method: suffering exists, arising from craving after permanence in flux, or change in stasis; craving may be extinguished; Noble 8-Fold Path extinguishes craving therefore, Bodhisattvas, having already engaged the 8-Fold Path, would be doing so in order to put an end to CRAVING, which they have realized is responsible for suffering, according to this instruction 'just suffering' tells us nothing about how suffering comes about, whether a particular condition is intended in the term's use, and how it may be terminated or avoided | Realising that it's all illusionary .... it isn't all illusory, it is all impermanent. this was one of the most important instructions of Arjuna of the Nagas