Path: kudonet.com!kudo20!tyagi From: ! Newsgroups: alt.zen,alt.philosophy.zen,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.buddhism Subject: questions vs. koans (was Re: Zen vs. Zen Buddhism vs. Buddhism) Date: 23 Mar 1997 03:51:15 -0800 Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services Lines: 90 Sender: tyagi@bjt.net Message-ID: References: <32fc4059.6857283@news.infoserve.net> <32FA93CA.29A2@ix.netcom.com> <3316bcc1.21229480@nntp.netcom.com> <334a65b7.11829636@nntp.netcom.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (!) NNTP-Posting-Host: kudo20.kudonet.com Xref: kudonet.com alt.zen:40854 alt.philosophy.zen:9766 alt.magick.tyagi:8884 mayoi@ix.netcom.com (karen): #>#># "What is the point of this? !: #>#> eat food, wash bowl mayoi@ix.netcom.com (karen): #># Cool. Did you make that one up yourself? !: #> no, stolen from a few zen masters. it is a commonplace saying which #> yields lasting value. mayoi@ix.netcom.com (karen): # Yes, I know that. I was being a smart ass. engage it then, rather than inserting brain into rectum #> consider applying it to the question you #> asked and to every activity in life # And what makes you think I don't? dunno your style. you asked for advice about it #>#># Why am I doing this? #>#># Why sit? #>#># Why practice Zen?" #>#> #>#> why why why. because because because #> #># Gee that's really helpful, [!]. Why in the world did I ever sit #># with those questions for hours on end when I could have just asked you? #> #> these are not valuable questions to sit with for hours on end. # # Oh contraire. Herbert says something similar in _Heretics of Dune_. 'Why?' and 'How?' both shut down the infinite, deceptively. I can quote if you insist #> there are better ones, called 'koans' which sometimes qualify as 'questions' # # Yes, [!], I know about koans. then you can comprehend that they are better than why why why and because because because. many *think* they know koans and yet really have no idea that koans are not merely questions at all, regardless of whether they are an apparent inquiry. important to remember to get this point that 'kung-an', the root of the term, does not denote 'inquiry' but 'record' (of the sayings and discussions of masters) #> the point was that 'why' is a never-ending miasma. first one, then #> another, then another. we can spend countless lifetimes wondering #> 'why'. # Yes, of course that's true, but IMO it depends on the question.... this is precisely the point. it does NOT depend on the question at all. it depends on the interaction between sensei and student # "Why am I sitting?" is hardly in the same league as "Who am I?" or # "Does God exist?" "Why am I sitting?" is a rather easily answerable # question, and at the time I was sitting sesshin it had all the force # of a koan for me. specific questions are not koans, especially if we presume to have 'answers'. while a question may have had the force of a koan, this does not make it one with the possible exception being for you (and this unlikely except for your limited meaning as I understand it) # I don't think that Zen means you necessarily have to sit on a zafu, # you know? Given that, it was very important for me to clarify just why # I've decided to practice in this way, why I feel the need to sit with a # group, why I feel I need a teacher. clarifying these things is not the result of a koan. koans are more penetrating and irrational than this in their function. the issues don't clarify, we do # And yes, I did find the answers. It wasn't that difficult, even though # at the time it seemed that way. then they weren't koans #> meanwhile the mold is growing in your bowl # # Yes, well, I'm working on that. less because because because may kill and prevent that mold