Path: Supernews70!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: i@no.self (!) Newsgroups: alt.religion.buddhism.theravada,alt.religion.buddhism,alt.zen,alt.buddha.short.fat.guy,alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.misc Subject: Re: To Monk or Not to Monk? That is the question! Date: 28 Feb 1998 18:04:39 -0800 Organization: Access Internet Communications, Inc. Lines: 84 Message-ID: <6dafnn$l99$1@shell.accesscom.com> References: <6cns3i$enb$1@floyd.ideal.net.au> <888111448.12981.0.nnrp-06.9e98e95a@news.demon.co.uk> <6cormf$g48$1@floyd.ideal.net.au> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (!) NNTP-Posting-Host: 13745@205.226.156.10 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Xref: Supernews70 alt.religion.buddhism.theravada:986 alt.religion.buddhism:1857 alt.zen:88043 alt.buddha.short.fat.guy:83510 alt.magick.tyagi:14870 talk.religion.misc:348890 uncited talks about the Buddha Gautama like this!: #> By contemporary standards his abandoning of his family was a #> disgrace and hardly a role model perfect role model; let go of all things --> family, friends, job, career, status, power, place, time #> - indeed he himself subsequently brought in a vinaya rule that a #>person may not become a monk without their family's consent. the history is fallacious. Gautama made no rules #> ...any decision must be informed by compassion and must avoid #> bringing the Buddhadharma into disrepute. trample the Buddhadharma like just so much of yesterday's filth #> ...does this leave you trapped in lay life, in samsara? it is error to equate "lay life", a role, and Samsara, a condition #> ...your children will have left home before many years, freeing #> you from some responsibilities. there is never any other time than now "Trevor Rhodes" , seeking advice, says: # ...my two daughters.... didn't want to talk me out of it, # but they managed to get me to put it off for a while. putting off and putting off, the chance of a lifetime abandoned! # At least till my son is off my hands. He seems to be the only # problem. never on your hands. let his care become the meditation. this is the problem with "zendo" thinking: suddenly the social life becomes the "problem" instead of the VERY ZENDO # so I'm here for at least another 3 years. I can use the time to # good purpose though. wasting away, waiting around, I rot and my discipline becomes a turnip #> ...very positive development in modern Western Buddhism has been #> the increased prominence of retreats. Why not get more involved #> in these, be a 'part-time' monk for a few weekends or weeks over #> the next few years? going to church on Sundays, I become a Christian #> Obviously it would involve time and financial commitments, but #> not as much as renouncing your present life! examine this carefully: "time and financial commitments". what are these? in the face of countless lifetimes of birth, reproduction, decay and dissolution, over and over and over, what is the difficulty in a little time and money? there is no other time than now. putting off the awakening of the cosmos is a crime "renouncing your present life". why is this so costly? would it not take far LESS time and money? really, why the need to shift elsewhere to renounce? why the need to take another name and enter into a very special community just so as to truly present what cannot be seen? my advice for you: make your home your zendo, make your wife your dharma-instructor, make your children your task-masters, make your dog or cat your zazen master, let go of the world, meditate in whatever you do, attempt compassion with all beings, set for yourself your own precepts, discover your peculiar combination of the 8-fold path, listen not to outworn traditions, be the very Buddha and find Nirvana right where you are! #> ...to anyone contemplating the monastic life, whether single or #> not, take your time, investigate carefully - both your own #> motives and the various sanghas to see if they are suited to #> you, and you to them. seek your sangha in prisons and cemeteries # I've investigated my own motives a lot. It's the rest of it that # I can now check out more fully. excuses excuses, never arriving, always planning to start Path: Supernews70!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: i@no.self (!) Newsgroups: alt.religion.buddhism.theravada,alt.religion.buddhism,alt.zen,alt.magick.tyagi Subject: Re: To Monk or Not to Monk? That is the question! Date: 28 Feb 1998 18:33:37 -0800 Organization: Access Internet Communications, Inc. Lines: 158 Message-ID: <6dahe1$m5t$1@shell.accesscom.com> References: <6cns3i$enb$1@floyd.ideal.net.au> <6d4m4h$bpj$1@firestorm.fundy.ca> <6d5ar9$nff$1@floyd.ideal.net.au> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (!) NNTP-Posting-Host: 13746@205.226.156.10 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Xref: Supernews70 alt.religion.buddhism.theravada:987 alt.religion.buddhism:1858 alt.zen:88051 alt.magick.tyagi:14871 "Trevor Rhodes" : # ...There is a very laaaaarge difference between love and # attachment.... no, they are intimately entwined # I have no need to dodge anything. I face my problems and # solve them. THAT's the spirit! # THAT is what it is all about. THAT is why I wrote the message. # To find answers to problems, not to avoid them. THAT's the spirit! # ...My problem was whether to follow one urge or the other. take the Middle Path # ...I have my family.... If they didn't mean anything I wouldn't # have a problem. I would have just left. so sad to have to choose Nirvana or family! look at the real sorrow of Buddhist tradition! get a vasectomy # ...Bhuddism, that has given me so much more than I could ever have # imagined. panacea. say "Bhudda" twelve times very fast # ...Of everything I have learnt about Bhuddism, I either believe # through investigation and practice or am willing to wait and see. picking up the board to remove the splinter, my hand full of splinters # I have found nothing that I disagree with. It is the most # profound thing to have ever happened in my life. which Buddhism???? # I could own a car. never! we never own anything. the 'monastic' life is merely accepting of real relationship, a kind of training wheels to Nirvanic capacity. dominion is even limited to person # ...The detachment is in not having to suffer through its loss. detachment is a LACK of compassion. suffering is the CONDITION of living. loss is the CONTINUING SAGA # I could leave my family and still love them. I could feel # sympathy and compassion for them but still leave. IF that was # what I wanted. I didn't know. That is why I posted the # message. It was like thinking out loud, but with the added # extra of maybe getting some advice. most offered elsewhere. instead, sit your family down and tell them they will help you to try a fabulous experiment! they will help you to wake up in family! tell them that you would like them to assist you in building your sangha in their home, that you would like a Buddha in the living room to bow to, that you will be eating and meditating and performing your regular duties with a new intention, letting go of all objects and people, admitting to your faults and limitations, discussing the sutras and the manner of the Nirvanic, understanding that all sentient beings are of their nature Buddha and able to instruct you #> If you think the life of a monk is all about detachment then #> you are mistaken seeking yin, finding yang #> - it is a complete devotion - not to a merely abstract, internal #> ideal, but to another family you eat, sleep, drink and breathe with. # I don't see that it has anything to do with other people at all. oh but it does. visit the monasteries, talk to the monks. in the tradition the Sangha is a very important part of the practice. what many of them will perhaps not know is that the variables in their practice are applicable to the family life. it is like comparing the Panchatattva (five forbidden thing ritual) of the Yogic Tantrics with the symbolic enactment of the masters. those who need the gross, the literal things, are the LESS mature. instead of aspiring to be like them, see how translating the monastic into the nonmonastic will be like a BOOSTER-ROCKET toward the awakening of countless lifetimes # You may be with them and have to interact with them but the # devotion is to the Path itself. there is no "Path itself" without its components: the Buddha, the Sangha and the Dharma. these are not aside from the Path! #> If you cannot resolve your detachment to your own family, #> then you will only carry this detachment from one family to #> another - and who does this help? a VERY important question, wherever we go, here we are # ...My problem is with myself. a thousand words with a single phrase # MY feeling the need to gain insight and understanding though # study and practice of the Eightfold Path start here, start now. start by presuming to know nothing about this 'Eightfold Path' and study books as a kind of 'student' phase of life. do not take any master as the Final Answer; gather together the variety of possibilities as to what "the Eightfold Path" might mean. consider them carefully and then discern among them the most truly wise. pursue it tirelessly within your life no matter its relation to others or to the natural world. never abandon the Path # which I am unable to do in my present life. the very sorrow # At least to the extent that I wish. wanting the world on a silver platter, I pass by the treasure-trove # That is why I have decided to ordain for a period of 3 months. # I add that this is being done with the blessing of my whole family. watch for parallels, similarities, biases and prejudice # ...which one to follow the Middle Path # or how to compromise between the two, which I have now done with # the assistance of those here at home and in this newsgroup who # have understood my meaning. The invaluable advice through # Dhamma talk with a Monk at our local Monastery was also very # useful. excellent. you will know your best road #> the inclination to pull a Siddhartha right now could be misguided. such straights - 'pull a Siddhartha'! if only! #> I am a devout buddhist, in a very private respect. I think it is #> important for us start from where we are in the here and now - #> not to make a wholesale departure. 'we' never start, we just tell others how to do it # Does anyone else here understand what I am saying? Please let me # know, because if this fellow is right I'll join the Flat Earth # Society. there is no Wrong or Right. the Flat Earthers are also correct. stand within a field and look away from you. flat earth