From tyagi  Wed Jun 25 03:31:46 1997
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Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 03:31:46 -0700
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Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.zen,alt.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.zen,alt.meditation,alt.consciousness.mysticism
Subject: Zen and Cyberzen (LONG) was Re: Zen 'Masters')
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From: I@no.self (!)
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[please offer correction to my honestly-displayed ignorance]

(!):
# from whence does the phrase 'Zen Master' derive?  

the term 'zen' appears to originate in India as 'dhyana' and makes a
 northerly journey to China as 'ch'an-na' where it makes a right turn 
 at Albequerque to become 'zenna' (or 'zenno'); these latter shortening 
 to 'ch'an' and 'zen' respectively

the term 'master' is a translation of the Japanese 'ji', the Chinese
 'shi' or 'shih'; taoist priests and monks are called 'tao-shih', so
 this title may have reflected a parallel usage or been a translation
 from the Indian 'ji' (as in 'swamiji')
 
# does it derive from the zendo, from the Buddhist Zen traditions?  
#  from the sangha in reflection of admiration for a teacher or monk?

'roshi' (old master) and 'zenji' ((great) zen master) appear to have 
 been delegated by the public or the monastic community in admiration 
 or as an honorific to a monk who demonstrated tremendous insight or
 unshakable character  

'roshi' has gradually become more and more easily adopted, until at
 times today zen monks are addressed as such out of respect for their
 position and age

'zenji', a more renowned status, was traditionally used posthumously 
 and, occasionally, prior to the death of a monk esteemed especially
 worthy

# can we begin to interject some solid foundation to it?  for
#  example, what possible meanings could 'master' imply within
#  Buddhist tradition generally?  

in 'Zen: In Search of Enlightenment', a film created by Japanese artists
 for Films for the Humanities, Inc., the Rinzai Zen Master featured
 therein was said to function not only as the director of the zendo, but
 also was said to have obtained satori.  the monks at the zendo were
 supposed to treat him *as the Buddha*, allowing him to guide them into
 seeing the Buddha within as well as to see into their true nature.
 this appears to be the traditional role of zen roshis

in this way 'master' implied both an administrative position and a
 condition of awareness (though the film also stated that only the
 individual could discern the benefits or detriments of continuing to
 live at the zendo and that the master could only point the monk 
 toward the Way, not walk it for them)

# is it strictly sangha-related, something to do with one's ability 
#  in regards the disciplines, the administration, or one's 
#  ascertainment of the doctrines? 

while it is likely often the case that those who are observed as
 having achieved satori qualify for these, there are stories,
 such as that of the Sixth Patriarch of Zen, Hui-Neng, in which
 the individual is not even a full monk when attaining satori (the 
 film mentioned above indicated he was a lay-monk, cooking in the 
 kitchens).  typically Hui-Neng, the founder of the 'sudden
 enlightenment' (tongo) zen in the south, is portrayed as having 
 had an innate or natural persuasion toward the awakened state  

indeed, in fact presuming the reality rebirth, exposure to the 
 doctrines or rigorous practice of the disciplines may not be 
 necessary for all in order to achieve the same result.  those who 
 favor the notion of 'bompu ('everyday') zen' sometimes go as far 
 as describing the zendo training as a 'preparation' for the satori 
 experience, such that if for some reason one had already received 
 sufficient instruction in some other way, then it may be possible 
 (however unlikely) that familiarity with the written dharma (the 
 Buddha's instructions as passed through the ages), integration 
 into the sangha (the monastic community) or specific mastery of 
 the disciplines may be wholly unnecessary

given this possibility, 'zen master' may also be applied as an 
 honorific outside the sangha itself (quite possibly attendant to 
 a lesser significance on this account)
 
# how often is it too much to look into the meaning of 'zen'?

in a discussion where the topic of a forum containing it is 
 supposed to include zen (such as 'alt.zen') and the focus has 
 drifted away from a dedicated reflection, meditative 
 absorption or, lacking these, some discussion on same, it is 
 valuable to look into its meaning again for orientation

#  what range of meaning can we give to it?  is 'meditation'
#  sufficient?  what about the less popular 'absorption'?  or
#  some kind of 'one-pointedness'?  'stopping thought'??

the above is a limited range of possibility as regards this 
 ambiguous term.  as a popular term it is most often associated 
 with a lineage of Buddhism which grew out of the meeting of 
 Dhyana Buddhism from India and the Taoism of China in the 6th 
 and 7th centuries

beyond this it is sometimes associated with the collectedness of
 mind or meditative absorption sometimes described as 
 'transcending dualistic categories of thought and perception'

traditionally it has come to mean a great deal more even than 
 this, inclusive of: 1. (a) special transmission outside the 
 (orthodox) teaching (kyoge-betsuden), 2. nondependence on 
 scripture (furyu-monji), and 3. direct pointing (to the) human 
 heart (jikishi-ninshin), leading to 4. realization of (one's
 own) nature (and) becoming a buddha (kenso-jobutsu)

as an esoteric term, zen has been described as*:

	not a religion but rather an indefinable, incommunicable
	root, free from all names, descriptions, and concepts,
	that can only be experienced by each individual for him-
	or herself.  From expessed forms of this, all religions
	have sprung.  In this sense Zen is not bound to any
	religion, including Buddhism.  It is the primordial
	perfection of everything existing, designated by the
	most various names, experienced by all great sages,
	saints, and founders of religions of all cultures and
	times.  Buddhism has referred to it as 'the identity
	of samsara and nirvana.'  From this point of view
	*zazen* is not a 'method' that brings people living
	in ignorance to the 'goal' of liberation; rather it is
	the immediate expression and actualization of the
	perfection present in every person at every moment.
 
# aren't we all great beings?  

this is what is implied by the esoteric interpretation expressed
 above -- except that we may not truly experience this greatness
 or the greatness of others in our everyday lives

#  is there value in comparing between any two people, given that 
#  we each have our own combination to unlock in our awakening?  
#  is it a race?  

such comparisons are a detour from awakening and inevitably of
 little value.  the monk, the dedicated, or their master might 
 find it of some value to compare hir own state of awareness,
 presence or awakening at one point with a later period, yet 
 this is more often a reflective process and may prove deceptive

#  does it truly matter, if 'zen mind is ordinary mind', of what 
#  character or quality of mind any one person has?  are we not 
#  perfect just where we are and how we are moving or sitting still?

to Mahayana Buddhists (of which Zen is one set of schools) it may matter 
 a great deal.  many take a vow to 'liberate all sentient beings',
 and thus pay a great deal of attention not only to the instructions
 in how to affect their own condition but those of others through vows
 of moral dedication and intentional discipline

that we are perfect just as we are says nothing about how able we may
 be to realize this to its fullest extent.  in some absolute sense
 it is of course irrelevant what we do or how deluded we may become

# who knows what about the words (say, who may know the traditional 
#  interpretation of 'zen master') and who demonstrates the principles 
#  described by those words may be two different people.  there can be 
#  benefit in pointing out positive examples of demonstrations of 
#  awareness with critical review.  the perfection of an art or a science
#  takes dedication and perspicacity, and zen may be no different

largely for this reason and some below is the time and effort taken to 
 respond here to the barrage of questions offered the alt.zen newsgroup 
 (in addition to demonstrating that it wasn't really intended to be 
 directed only toward one person but to all of us)

there is a great deal of attention within academic text (such as offered
 above) and public forums given to the dry data surrounding the tradition
 and philosophy of Buddhism and many other mystical systems.  seldom are
 the qualities which these systems inspire in individuals who may be
 considered their fruits examined with any care

less often are our own lives and those around us evaluated as to whether
 these identified qualities are arising along the path which we are 
 walking, homing in on suitable instructors or disciplines which will 
 help us shift in any direction we may seek to move 

as an Internet community we have a golden opportunity to explore and
 experiment in this regard, developing practical interaction styles
 among and making subtle connections with people from whom we would
 otherwise be widely separated.  as a relative science inclusive of 
 simplicity and mutual respect this is a very worthwhile endeavor
 
re: calling a person 'master' 
# ...perhaps it serves a real and meaningful purpose

when reserved and well-placed, perhaps only privately

# a very important question outside of an established lineage which 
#  already has it very clearly defined (through experience or tenure 
#  if nothing else) is how, amongst a buji sangha, to determine any 
#  sort of authority.  

'buji sangha' is meant to imply simultaneously a loose confederation
 of independent students who have no shared master and a group which
 includes all manner of participant, from the egomaniac to the very
 sincere monk who engages zazen (by whatever meaning) many times per day

without some need to establish coordinated administrative offices (such
 as in a zendo or within, for example, an elist or moderated newsgroup)
 'authority' will of necessity and habit be determined emotionally and
 through reflection by regular members on the content and style of those
 who contribute to the forum as a whole

#  should it be done by consensus, 

only where such a consensus develops naturally on its own, and then only
 in a limited acknowledgement of respect (rather than some directional
 hierarchy developing in which a similar 'master-student' relationship
 obtains as that of traditional zendos)

#  through connection to an established line, 

by virtue of being 'buji' in this sense it should include those of
 established lines from within its membership but not establish any 
 sort of authority based only on such involvement 

#  in a democratic vote, 

this is seldom an effective way to conduct mystical enterprises

#  as the result of some sort of 'mondo combat', 

this appears to be a developing tradition (albeit rudimentary) within
 the alt.zen buji sangha.  in traditional zen it is called 'hossen'
 or 'mondo', and implies not some win/lose competition, but a face-
 front comparison of zen experience without antagonism without recourse
 to discursive thinking or philosophic or religious doctrine, an exchange
 (traditionally limited to few questions-responses -- often one) in
 which one interacts with persons of *greater* awareness for the
 purpose of refinement and personal training (hossen => 'dharma contest';
 mondo => 'question and answer')

#  in the comparison of who can demonstrate some physical, mental, 
#  or emotional feat more completely, for a longer time, or more 
#  accurately than another?  

this is too often a mistake made by those who view zen from the 
 outside -- considering the disciplines and rigors included in the 
 method to be athletic or competitive, when in fact where one monk
 may need one extreme while another will merely be detoured by it

that said, there is something to the ability to faithfully present to
 the sangha the character and quality of other zen methods, what takes
 place outside the forum proper, and what has been given traditional
 attention.  this is another aspect of the science of awakening
 
# is there any reason for [titles such as 'zen master' or 'roshi'] 
#  in Usenet?  

there may be if sufficient membership in discussion does not turnover
 into offline pursuits but instead maintains a continuous dedication
 to sincere and heart-mind to heart-mind transmissions via this medium

at that point a consensus may develop whereby such titles can be of
 indicative value as regards respect and honor, nothing more needed

#  why should the two communities be compared?  

if they are utilizing similar language or attempting similar purposes
 then it not only points out the limitations of the comparison (in that
 the offline communities are much more intensive and involved with one
 one another and likely more hierarchical and disciplined) as well as
 any commonalities which may in fact be seen by those who participate
 in both (the boundary being fluid in the case of online communities)

#  do they truly have any resemblance if all we do is type words to 
#  the same file cabinet and watch them fade away?

if this is all we do then of course there is no resemblance.  that we
 have memories and develop discursive relationships with other forum
 members allows a modicum of significance, especially given possible
 styles of interaction and variation in experience and knowledge

#  "sa avidya ya vimuktaye" -- "that which liberates is ignorance"
___________________________________________________________________

* quote taken from _The Shambhala Dictionary of Buddhism and Zen_,
  pages 261-3; a few other passages from this book were paraphrased
  or almost quoted in the construction of this post