Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail
From: !
Newsgroups: alt.zen,alt.philosophy.zen,alt.tibetan.buddhism,alt.meditation,alt.magick.tyagi
Subject: Re: Guru System vs Buddhist Thougt?
Date: 29 Nov 1995 13:00:59 -0800
Organization: Portal Communications (shell)
Lines: 70
Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com
Message-ID: <49ihmb$ck8@jobe.shell.portal.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com
Xref: shell.portal.com alt.zen:18869 alt.philosophy.zen:4802 alt.meditation:16647 alt.magick.tyagi:5083

|If you are not convinced then why did you use the word "I" above?

I's can change I think

|>the *water* (this body) exists.  this I can more easily defend, though it
|> is also false in a way.  I am a shooting star, man.  in an eternal realm
|> of expression anything which has a termination point is not truly real 

|...I don't see the human body as anything really different than the human 
|mind.  

feels different to me

|...substratum which is supposeed to exist upon which the "self" is played 
|like a wave, ...I don't think the substratum exists without the wave.  
|The delusory self creates the fabric just as much as the fabric creates 
|the delusion of self.

can what does not exist create that which does exist?  I think this is
 an age-old and irresolvable metaphysical question

|...ask yourself which comes first, thought or thinker.  

it seems to me that thinker comes first, then thought

|Can you find some atom at the core which thinks the thoughts?  

no, it is a general biophysical organism experiencing feedback on its
 perceptual systems.  that being is as much of a 'core' as you can get
 unless you define parameters beyond this for exclusion

|no, there are thoughts, and part of what the thoughts do is create a 
|thinker.

you may be confusing levels of creation.  the creation of the cosmos is 
 of a slightly different order of object than the creation of the 
 thoughts about yourself 

|I agree that it is the pertanent focus.  I do not agree that it is
|the core.  If one were to awaken and then fall back asleep then
|nothing usefull would be accomplished.

it is not the core from which the fruit of wakefulness will blossom like
 a lotus from the mud of Ganges?

|...the nature of each individual wave.  Is the wave constructive of the 
|whole or destructive to the whole?

this may change over time

|..I think that the essence of being awake is realizing that there is a 
|consistent pattern of impermanence.  If there was not a consistent 
|pattern then you could not propose a method of ending suffering.

yes I could.  just because I cannot prescribe the perfect ways of learning,
 I can demonstrate ways of learning and allow students to pick their own
 proscription with my guidance.  it would be like a blind person who is
 describing to another how to dance and sing, from crawling and grunting to
 the refinement of the art.  

or perhaps it would be like a communication between severely strained 
 mediums (the old 'telephone' game, secret messages, through a hose at a
 great distance, etc.).  but I think it is possible

I cannot look at the Moon for you, but I can hint at it slightly
-- 
		CC public responses to email.  READ alt.magick.tyagi.
		 
		TRY : http://www.portal.com/~tyagi/nagasiva.html
				             ______________