Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Xiwang mu) Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.zen,alt.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.misc,alt.meditation,alt.magick Subject: Re: Buddhism, Occultism, and Mysticism Date: 15 Jan 1996 17:32:54 -0800 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 73 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4dev86$kgj@jobe.shell.portal.com> References: <4d1lte$4id@hopi.dtcc.edu> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Xiwang mu) NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.philosophy.zen:5684 alt.religion.buddhism:136 talk.religion.buddhism:15257 alt.magick.tyagi:6201 talk.religion.misc:199322 alt.meditation:18975 alt.magick:63929 kaliyuga 49960114 [I call anything which includes 'meditation' mystical] l23@hopi.dtcc.edu (GERALD J. LA CORTE) writes: |There arose a question recently asking if Buddhism forbade the occult, to |which the overwhelming response was yes. Ah yes, but never did these people tell us what 'the occult' meant to them. Therefore the responses were mostly meaningless. By far the responses that indicated 'yes' merely affirmed their desire that the subjects not be conflated within the forum in question. |Why do many Buddhists restrict their diet (i.e. from meat)? Most religious follow orthodox praxis as a function of conformism. That is, they do it because they are told it is the best way to live. Some may do it because of philosophical or ethical reasons (cf. 'ahimsa', for example). Some do it because it leads to particular states of consciousness which they desire. |Of those who meditate or attempt to meditate, you know there are certain | things which are harmful to your practice (i.e. music, strong odors, | food, exceptional noise). Actually what you are here characterizing as 'harmful' is only a pointer toward what makes practice *difficult*. It does not actually harm the practice per se, though it may pose an obstacle to the undedicated or impatient. Advanced practice actually intentionally includes such things. |Why do you refrain from such distractions before and during meditation? The best reason of which I am aware is that if we attempt advanced practice before we have mastered beginning practice then we may not derive benefit from it. Distractions are usually obstacles to the beginner. To the adept, they are challenges to be overcome. |Why do we attempt to be in certain places at certain times of the year? I'm really not sure what you are asking or how this applies to your rhetorical questions (beauties) asked above, though I'd love to hear more as to why you ask this. |most Buddhists are at least a little mystical. That is also my understanding, especially when one takes the definition for 'mystical' which incorporates a more 'transpersonal' approach (cf 'transpersonal psychology' in the West). |While not occultists, one is only the extreme form of the other. |Different branches "revere" meditation and mysticism to certain extents. |At what point mysticism turns into occulism is unclear. Precisely, and this is best seen by those who make a study of either or both. They are in many senses the same thing seen in different contexts and by different people. Usually when religious attempt to separate themselves from either they have a very particular (and rather useless) meaning which the author didn't really intend to convey. mu tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com -- To ensure my response CC all public replies to email (READ alt.magick.tyagi) (emailed replies may be posted) * http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html INTENTIONAL .SIG PROTEST: FUCK SHIT PISS COCKSUCKER MOTHERFUCKER TITS CUNT Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: ! Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.zen,alt.philosophy.buddhism Subject: Re: True practitioners of Buddhism Date: 24 Jan 1996 13:47:12 -0800 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 16 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4e69d0$l0c@jobe.shell.portal.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.magick.tyagi:6406 talk.religion.buddhism:15636 alt.zen:22196 |Have you ever tried to play chess (or baseball) with no rules? How would you |ever begin, let alone "win?" cf Carse and _Infinite Games_, wherein he describes the infinite game as having as its definition a winning result of continuing the game, whereas finite games focus upon 'winners' and 'losers' it is similar to what Smullyan calls 'making something of oneself' or what I might say is the esteem of joining in, yet it is not obvious to me that it is superior practice in all cases to require or abandon rules human beings are too variable for clear and defined practice to be expressible in our relative and incomplete communication device we call 'language'. you can say 'sit!' with all your heart's intent, but only that reflective pathway that consistently inspires its recursion will bring about even the semblance of satori Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: ! Newsgroups: talk.religion.buddhism,alt.zen,alt.philosophy.zen,alt.magick.tyagi Subject: The Problem of Experience Date: 24 Jan 1996 19:27:41 -0800 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 48 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4e6tbd$oqn@jobe.shell.portal.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com talk.religion.buddhism:15649 alt.zen:22224 alt.philosophy.zen:5821 alt.magick.tyagi:6410 |...What is the problem of experience? the problem of experience is what the modern Scientists have not yet come to grips with -- the resolution of the subject and object subsequent to the cartesian split and dispensing with Platonic forms of material perfection the problem is 'what is experience if there is no consistent experiencer?' |Are you saying that in order to have an experience there needs to |"exist" an experiencer? that is the common-sense argument, yes |...there is the experience, but no experiencer. I disagree. :> there is experiencer, but it is merely not consistent. we do not say that the wave 'does not exist', only that it is composed of different contents (water-volume) at each moment as it moves along |In meditation you can experience the lack of a self, nobody can experience a lack of self. that is a contradiction in terms and constitutes a meaningless reference |the lack of any entity other than the 5 skandhas. I suggest that there is some dispute as to the *existence* of this 'self' or whatever we might call fluxuating wheel of samsara that our karma powers, and, not only this, but that the 5 skandhas may or may not constitute elements of this 'false self', but in any case may substantiate a centrality into which they aggregate I do not dispute that the centrality changes continuously, but I cannot say it 'does not exist' -- I am rather convinced with Descartes of the opposite, however, though not the longlastingness or individuation of this existence as some sort of separate entity (I have not disproved to myself what is called among Buddhists interdependent origination, and find this to be a more centrally- agreed-upon doctrine than that of a particular interpretation of no-self or sunyata these are overly complex concepts and I welcome correction as to their particular meanings should your tradition or vision vary from what is presented above (upaya comes in strange form at times) |This experience is very convincing. Give it a try. certainty is the downfall of true practice Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: ! Newsgroups: alt.zen,alt.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.misc Subject: chanting Date: 11 Apr 1996 01:44:12 -0700 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 18 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4kigos$1kq@jobe.shell.portal.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.zen:28956 alt.religion.buddhism:262 talk.religion.buddhism:19351 talk.religion.misc:213524 [WARNING: IF YOU EMAIL ME A RESPONSE, I MAY REPLY IN PUBLIC, LIKE THIS!!] |>|Do Zen Buddhists do chanting? |>yes, chanting is a part of traditional zen meditation (between long |> sittings, for example, and as part of walking meditation upon occasion. |> the Heart of Wisdom Sutra is often chanted and bows are made to the |> altar upon which the Buddha sits, the Teacher, and to the Cushion or |> Zafu. I'm sure it varies considerably. some temples chanted in |> Japanese (CA), some in English (IL) |Why is chanting done? chanting is sometimes used as a form of meditation within Buddhism. it can of course affect the breathing, and this may in turn effect a peculiar state of consciousness upon the chanter. it may inspire a group cohesion and comparisons, becoming a distraction and/or functioning as skillful means in awakening Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: ! Newsgroups: talk.religion.buddhism,alt.zen,alt.philosophy.zen,alt.relgion.buddhism Subject: Re: What is NOT zen? Date: 12 Apr 1996 01:56:45 -0700 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 11 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4kl5sd$i1c@jobe.shell.portal.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com talk.religion.buddhism:19439 alt.zen:29126 alt.philosophy.zen:6996 |>|sitting in zazen silently and in stillness is wrong sitting in zazen. there is no 'wrong sitting in zazen' |> What is this obsession with Zazen? :) sitting absorption is simply the most intense and conducive of awakening |...Where is the line between obsession and concientiousness,...? indicated clearly by embarassment Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: ! Newsgroups: alt.zen,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.consciousness,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.religion.buddhism,alt.meditation Subject: Re: What do Buddhists eat? Date: 10 Jun 1996 02:05:02 -0700 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 34 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4pgofu$j7i@jobe.shell.portal.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.zen:33870 alt.magick.tyagi:8396 alt.consciousness:27354 talk.religion.buddhism:21513 alt.religion.buddhism:429 alt.meditation:25899 |...do Buddhists have a special diet? yes. buddhists are traditionally vegetarians, likely vegans, though there are tales of monks eating anything given to them in their begging bowls (and legend has it the Buddha ate something bad, some say poisonous mushroom, others bad pork, before he entered parinirvana (superheaven)) |Are there food practices or rituals you follow? I am not traditional Buddhist, but I do follow these practices as often as possible: eat simple, bland food, which does not heavily impact the consciousness (low in sugars, most fats), and try to eat low on the food chain as well as early in the processing cycle. eliminate red meat consumption, minimize chicken/fish/egg (eliminate if possible) focus on grains, fruits, vegetables and legumes. lately I've been exploring tofu (soybean), which does appear to taste better when marinated. (I won't kid you I don't always stick to that diet, but for extensive periods I have continued it, and enjoyed it immensely) |Are there major differences in these practices between the |varying types of Buddhism and nations? I imagine that most Buddhists are vegans if they are serious. my own lazy ways are serving only as learning examples. if I can do this, so can you (he says, after having completed two large Kit-Kat bars and a few cookies after a microwave cheese pasta this evening; I am but an ugh) Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: ! Newsgroups: alt.zen,alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.philosophy.taoism,alt.satanism,alt.religion.budddhism,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.philosophy.zen Subject: becoming our own sages (was Re: NLudd: Zen is the work of demons) Date: 14 Jun 1996 05:54:56 -0700 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 13 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4prnf0$81g@jobe.shell.portal.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.zen:34318 alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren:13141 alt.magick.tyagi:8510 alt.philosophy.taoism:4042 alt.satanism:45158 talk.religion.buddhism:21680 alt.philosophy.zen:7951 |Who/what are the sages. Can we not become our own sages? no. sage to oneself is not typically described in the texts of old with which I'm familiar. it is something one speaks about with respect to others, an ideal, a prototype. speaking of it with respect to oneself is not conventional and may be seen as comic or rude |We can, do, will quote from those before us; however, at a time we might |learn to quote from ourselves. quotation has its benefits. just as does repeating the motion of the ideographic painter, the swishing circle, may allow the state of mind necessary to transcend all barriers and awaken