From <@YaleVM.CIS.Yale.Edu> Sun Mar 31 12:04:44 1996 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id MAA27892 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:04:44 -0800 Received: from YaleVM.CIS.Yale.Edu (yalevm.ycc.yale.edu [130.132.21.136]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA18150 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:04:40 -0800 Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by YaleVM.CIS.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5042; Sun, 31 Mar 96 15:02:31 EST Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0558; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 15:04:33 -0500 Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 5912 for MYSTIC-L@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 15:04:32 -0500 Received: from UCONNVM (NJE origin SMTPT@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0548; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 15:04:32 -0500 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sun, 31 Mar 96 15:04:31 EST Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id MAA18108 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:03:10 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id MAA27832 for MYSTIC-L@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:03:08 -0800 Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3222 Message-ID: <199603312003.MAA27832@jobe.shell.portal.com> Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:03:08 -0800 Reply-To: Academic Discussion of Mysticism Sender: Academic Discussion of Mysticism From: ! Subject: Zen Buddhism and Arationality To: Multiple recipients of list MYSTIC-L In-Reply-To: from "Mike Graffam" at Mar 31, 96 09:15:10 am Status: RO |Zen is not illogical or irrational. It is NON-logical and NON-rational. usually 'alogical' and 'arational', though I think this an overstatement |A Zen master would encourage the student not to think with the |rational mind, instead the student should percieve and be aware |of all things without analyzing them. (perhaps unfortunately) what is called 'Zen' or sometimes 'zen' is not solely provided by Masters. There is a wide diversity among Zen Buddhists and Zen nonBuddhists (!?) as regards rationality and logic. There is a mountain of commentary on Buddhist ideas from within itself, for example, quite impossible for one human to read within a lifetime. Some great portion of these a Zen Buddhist there is something called 'wild fox school', which may be more of a euphemism than a consistent category. teachers within this school are not subject to restriction due to organized Zen Masters, have their own (non?) doctrine, etc. in other words, things may not be as black and white as you paint them here. Zen Buddhism also varies all over the planet |...For something to be irrational, or illogical it must be held up |against the light of reason and logic. Zen does not do this, instead |wishing to use the flame of intuition and emotion to illuminate the |subject. it is said that koans are kernels of sand around which the student may excoriate one's intellectual roughness so as to form a pearl of wisdom. they are often semi-rational and typically include exchanges between masters and students within the zendo. |Do you analyze a piece of art work and say "it has blue; I like blue. |It done in water-color; but I dont like water-color. Gee, well the |water-color outweighs the blue, therefore I dont like this piece"? this is called art criticism and is a part of serious art studies, though it might be contrary to some approaches to the field (the intuitive, for example). there is also a traditional rivalry between artists and critics of that art |I think not, one takes in the art in in one breath, internalizes it |and either likes it or doesnt. Why and how are secondary concerns |for most. This isnt logical, as one judges the thing before one |has analyzed what the thing is an has. Neither is is illogical. I disagree that this is a universal (or even the most popular) way to experience artwork of any sort. beyond this, Zen Buddhism does have within its tradition a great number of logical texts describing prescription models for awakening. some of these are part of Buddhist tradition since its origins and before, such as that of the Four Noble Truths, the Eight-fold Path to Nirvana and the Twelve-Link Chain of Causation. these are not so 'arational' as you portray to be sure there are Zen schools which eshew logic and intellectuallism, but the entirety that is Zen is not restricted to this. there are a number of Zen Buddhists who write very coherent and logical/rational books more on zen: news:alt.philosophy.zen news:alt.religion.buddhism (.nichiren/.tibetan) news:alt.zen news:soc.religon.eastern news:talk.religion.buddhism telnet:cheshire.oxy.edu:7777 fin