Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: ! Newsgroups: alt.meditation,alt.yoga,alt.zen,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.philosophy.taoism,alt.philosophy.zen,alt.consciousness,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.magick.tantra,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan Subject: Sex and the Dharma Date: 11 Dec 1995 09:34:05 -0800 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 53 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4ahq2d$s0h@jobe.shell.portal.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.meditation:17284 alt.yoga:3271 alt.zen:19282 alt.magick.tyagi:5306 alt.philosophy.taoism:2232 alt.philosophy.zen:4918 alt.consciousness:21214 talk.religion.misc:192000 alt.religion.sexuality:9564 alt.magick.tantra:191 talk.religion.buddhism:13744 alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan:5274 |...under what conditions IS it acceptable for a teacher to have sex |with a student? 'acceptable' is the problem, as it varies from culture to culture, person to person. easier to place oneself in one of the roles and ask the question like this: {...under what conditions would you, as a teacher or student, find it {acceptable to engage the sexual advance of your counterpart? student: I am a student of the dharma. my teacher may well be able to show me something important about the dharma through various means of communi- cation, including sexual. more often I would look for symptoms of lust or attachment on the part of my teacher and in this case may resist the sexual interaction. if she pushes me, then the type of relationship I have we have will severely impact my response i.e., if teacher = spiritual mentor/master/guru? then obey without question (perhaps questioning later); if teacher = spiritual advisor/equal/monk? then be very very cautious and ask that instruction stop before sex begins unless there is obvious connection and I consent to this advance teacher: the dharma is my barometer. my student may be able to prepare hirself for awakening with my guidance. such preparation may involve many different types of instruction. if I initiate a sexual interaction because this is important to hir preparation, then it must be done with equanimitous poise and careful respect again, this depends greatly upon the relationship. if the student is a chela or disciple, then any number of approaches may be necessary. if the student is merely a co-conspirator learning of the Buddha's expression, then I had best terminate the lesson before engaging sexual relations, as the messy confusion which will likely result will serve very few indeed the most important consideration wrt sexuality (in any circumstance) is chastity: honesty within intimate relationships. this not only includes disclosure (baring one's feelings, vulnerabilities, etc.), but also consideration (coming to know the condition/reaction of my partner(s) and exercising compassion in response) this is true regardless of the social roles which we may engage, and such tutelary exemplars as Bobo Roshi (student) and Yeshes Tsogyal (teacher) demonstrate this principle with great subtlety ~references: _Lust For Enlightenment: Buddhism and Sex_, by John Stevens _Tantric Sex_, by Robert Moffett Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: ! Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.zen,alt.zen,alt.consciousness,alt.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.buddism Subject: Re: Sex and the Dharma Date: 18 Dec 1995 14:23:50 -0800 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 57 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4b4plm$5tb@jobe.shell.portal.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.philosophy.zen:5067 alt.zen:19727 alt.consciousness:21639 alt.religion.buddhism:88 |How is having sex showing an attachment (beyond the obvious physical |connection)? the dedicated do not play whoopie; theirs is a boring and dry world of no-sex, no-pleasure and back-breaking zazen; through this we see the value of waking, for they teach that the Buddha was an ascetic |Does this mean "enlightened" people cannot have sex? yes, 'in the world but not of it' means no playing with your privates. don't bother that the Buddha had all his sexual needs fulfilled BEFORE ever coming to wakefulness |I'm wondering if we're attempting to place our Victorian-Era Western |value system onto an Asian tradition. I thought it was already Victorian enough. Buddhists typically equate 'monasticism' with 'asceticism' |How would sex hurt someones practice unless sex is always bad? inspires attachment to physical pleasure, since sexuality is usually controlled and used as a stimulation device in most economies |>...NOT having sex with a student just makes life easier for everyone, |>doesn't it? does it? NOT doing zazen makes life easier on everyone, doesn't it? NOT taking up discipline makes life easier too, doesn't it? NOT practicing discernment makes life easier too, no? how about NOT bothering with any of this Buddhist shit? makes life too complicated and challenges us to grow |...I wouldn't want to impose my value system on others for the sake |of making my life easier. isn't this the Buddhist Way? hard dharma lessons constrained within a serious and ascetic environment equating 'zazen' with physical sitting and 'enlightenment' with Order rank? |>We often think of the teachers as men who have sex with women and |>that idea that men haveing a lot of women is sometimes acceptable in |>society(no matter how moral they claim to be). So I say this: |>Would your answer be different if the teacher was a women? yes. women are much more capable of engaging sexuality without becoming attached or losing their wisdom FOR MEN : NO SEX FOR WOMEN: FUCK YOURSELVES SILLY (Ned, you may now pass out the hats) |...why you would assume the rules would be different? because she's an 'Innie' and I'm an 'Outie' (no, not belly buttons) Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: ! Newsgroups: alt.meditation,alt.yoga,alt.zen,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.philosophy.taoism,alt.philosophy.zen,alt.consciousness,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.magick.tantra,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,alt.polyamory,alt.sex.wizards Subject: Re: Sex and the Dharma Date: 9 Jan 1996 11:49:11 -0800 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 79 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4cugrn$nqc@jobe.shell.portal.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.meditation:18712 alt.yoga:4001 alt.zen:20907 alt.magick.tyagi:6121 alt.philosophy.taoism:2751 alt.philosophy.zen:5629 alt.consciousness:23031 talk.religion.misc:198439 alt.religion.sexuality:10550 alt.magick.tantra:600 talk.religion.buddhism:15102 alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan:5882 alt.polyamory:37045 alt.sex.wizards:43781 [technical difficulties enforced delay -- apologies for any duplication] | > Sexual love implies attachment choice of one over others. orgies contradict this. as long as we are open to multiple sexual partners or group sexuality, then we'd have no problems as buddhists here (of course Buddhists might, if their sexual mores extended to monogamy or conservatism) |Yes. It implies that I choose to put my erect penis inside a |vagina rather than a slab of dirt. Nothing more. never thought of a hole in the ground as a valuable masturbation technology, though I have of course heard of various foods, such as cucumbers and melons | > It makes it difficult for the student to pursue their own enlightenment really? I've never heard of this. what is it exactly that makes it difficult? for *any* student? doesn't one's background have anything to do with the mechanism for awakening best accepted by an individual? see, I got this weird idea that my objective is to wake up from the dream I'm continuously engaging as a result of society's processes of communication (vocally, in words, for one) if this is true, then at times it may be quite important to trespass that society's mores on my initiative as a student in order to more fully make possible that awakening in general, I must admit, I don't tend to be as intellectually trusting of a person that I know to be actively sexual with more than one of hir students (usually this is concealed; if it wasn't, it might interest me more in studying with hir, in part due to hir openness and in part to find out how she makes it work :>) | > and for the teacher to comassionately love all his or her students. that is possible regardless of who is sleeping with who, though it is certainly more complex and prone to abuse the issue among zen buddhists (as compared to the organized, Zen Buddhists, who maintain much stricter personal behaviors as I understand it), is not whether it is morally correct (since our purposes may not entirely be served through conformity to localized human behavioral norms), but that it is likely *confusing* and possibly tangental to your intended goal/s (should one maintain one/any) > > It is not a matter of moral absolutes, that is too immature. I think this depends on to whom one is talking. some people are emotionally quite young in comparison to their chronological age, and this can include sexual age (development and experience in the realm of sexuality). such stressors or differences between any two individuals can become almost insurmountable without guidance, and may forge permanent barriers to one's personal development (esp if you have particular goals in mind) | > It is a question of really following the Buddhist path as opposed to | > playing an elaborate game and getting nowhere. A very interesting dichotomy which I shall leave to the organized Buddhists |Sex needen't be very emotional. One can train oneself to feel very little |besides the physical side. I'm unsure why anyone would wish to except as some sort of ascetic enterprise, or an agreed and deliberate attempt at detachment practice | > The hottest of hells are reserved for those that do. oooo, we're *so* scared! ::shiver:: uh, who was it that was going to hell, exactly? some Anatman d00d? |What the fuck has "hell" got to do with anything? |Aren't we talking about Buddhism here? oh, you haven't heard of what I like to call the 'Christo-Buddhists'? see, the Buddhists have hells too, especially when you get into China, but even the Indians had lower realms of being than the human and animal, sometimes ghostly and zomboid, sometimes hellish and punishment-oriented