Path: Supernews!kudonet.com!not-for-mail From: I@no.self (!) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.fan.surak,alt.zen,alt.philosophy.zen,alt.philosophy.taoism Subject: C'thia (Vulcan) and the Way (Zen/Taoism) (was Re: surak-philosophy) Date: 18 Jun 1997 20:50:44 -0700 Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services Lines: 244 Sender: tyagi@bjt.net Message-ID: <5oaaak$c8b@kudo20.kudonet.com> References: <199706131323.IAA10687@tuvela.shikahr.com.inter.net> <19970613.231047.5351.2.cdneely@juno.com> <5ns1n6$2ci@nr1.calgary.istar.net> <199706171744.MAA02042@tuvela.shikahr.com.inter.net> <199706171745.MAA02069@tuvela.shikahr.com.inter.net> <19970617.234939.5047.0.cdneely@juno.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (!) NNTP-Posting-Host: kudo20.kudonet.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Xref: Supernews alt.magick.tyagi:12986 alt.fan.surak:6714 alt.zen:64293 alt.philosophy.zen:15162 alt.philosophy.taoism:14167 [a compilation of responses on this important subject] (from Article: 142 of alt.fan.surak) IDLAL@ASUACAD.BITNET: #> ...didn't Spock talk to Valeris about faith in ST6, refering back to #> their discussion that logic is only the beginning of wisdom, and the #> very thing he realizes he didn't have in regards to Kirk? within that series Mr. Spock may not be the most eloquent exponent, at that point, of Vulcan philosophy, even in such intimate conversations. nevertheless, it is possible that he understood that there is a difference between the Vulcan "c'thia" and "logic" by strict standards, and was intending to mean it in a more rational, intellectual sense (as it is sometimes called 'reason-truth') #> ...doesn't the concept carry over with Spock in "Unification," when #> he tells Picard he had gifts his father never understood, namely #> intuition and the faith to follow that instinct? I think he adds #> that he had found it a source of great strength. surely 'reason-truth' is only a part of the character of the mature individual. intuition and faith may be somewhat alien to Vulcan philosophy, depending on who is constructing it at the time ;) #>So perhaps, this is not a widely accepted concept in Vulcan #>philosophy. Does logic necessarily negate faith? there is no need for faith where the Way is known. intellectual logic only succeeds in making faith unnecessary, yet it has its limitations of value Randall Raemon #...faith might be likened to a forward declaration in a programming #language, giving just enough information for the following declaration #to make sense. There is a book describing the problem solution style of #these kinds of things ("Wicked Problems, Righteous Solutions", #ISBN 0-13-590126-X). It is the kind of problem where a solution is #known only after the fact. Classic a priori logic tends to break down #in these cases. and there are many different kinds of even *Terran* logic beyond the Aristotlean (cf. Nagarjuna, whose ideas may prove more closely related to those examined by writers on Vulcan philosophy) #...the word "logic" in Terran English may be only a poor translation #from the corresponding Vulcan text. Vulcan dictionaries provide 'reason-truth' and 'the way (things are)'. Diane Duane associates this latter, if memory serves, with 'the tao' #It might very well be, that Vulcan logic may be more in the nature of #what we call Zen.... Vulcan and Taoist/Zen philosophy are compared as well by Duane, if memory serves, but Vulcan logic itself would have to be compared to the logic of human philosophers of Buddhism to be compared to Zen (again, start with the Indians like Nagarjuna of the Middle Way School/Madkhyamika, then look toward the Yogacara and, thereafter, to Ch'an and hence to Zen Buddhisms). subsequently an examination with this in mind of the Taoist philosophers would round out a complete analysis. no small task, especially as within each their quality of logical exposition must be analyzed and subsequently compared and contrasted with each of the others in order to be complete #Then again, c'thia(sp?) as I have heard it described, might be a better #match to Zen, and in Vulcan there may be no separate word for logic as #we use the word. that is how Duane relates it, yes. but 'reason-truth' is an adequate, if more expansive, correlate, since it implies the type of self-evidence typically ascribed to logical deduction ---------------------------------------- Ginger L Sackett-1 : #>#> What does Surak's philosophy entail, in your opinion? We all know about #>#> IDIC, logic, control of emotions and peace, but what else? even these are not truly fleshed out well, though they can be discerned with an eye toward the language developed by Vulcan philosophers and expositors and possible human philosophies which parallel or from which they could be derived (given a step outside the Star Trek paradigm) #>#> Patience - ...The universe is not perfect, and many things may take #>#> quite a bit of time to work, especially dealings with others #>#> who do not necessarily share ones beliefs. patience is a virtue of many more quietist philosophies and cultures. this does not always derive from a presumption of the imperfection of the all, however. indeed, IMpatience may speak to our immaturity given the perfection of c'thia (the way (things are)) mi950012@newi.ac.uk (Alexander T Greene): #> A Vulcan ordered to sit and wait would do so only if it was logical so #> to do. If it was logical to act when inaction was required, the Vulcan #> would have no compunction in disobeying the order, even if it #> subsequently got her into trouble. The Vulcan would maintain that her #> actions were entirely logical, you see, as if that gave her justification. at this point it becomes clear that c'thia/logic begins to have a faulty significance to it if we are not careful. it is not that an action is deducible to the intellectual mind but almost begins to take on an ethical character. there may be presumed to be a 'Way' which may be discerned, and if this Way leads one to violate reigning authority, then we may also presume that this Way is elemental to the individual's being, a kind of barometer against which acts are judged however, quickly we enter into a Thelemic (cf. Rabelais/Crowley) dilemma. if at any moment the Vulcan (or indeed any individual) may discern that an action is "against c'thia" (Terran 'illogical'), then how an any sort or reliability be maintained? it is a Thelemic dilemma because in the philosophy of Thelema the individual is presumed to have a 'true will' by which she regulates and discerns hir most perfect activity, and thus it compares directly with this example of disobedience as I say above it appears to enter into a type of 'ethics' in that it cannot be completely presumed that what the individual establishes as "c'thia" is necessarily to be so in the overview of the action taken. the authority will probably review the action and determine itself whether it was 'right' (cf. officers ordered to perform heinous acts of violence in situations like WWII Germany; this exact ethical dilemma is resolved by the courts in support of disobedience even by Terran standards within the film 'Nuts') cdneely@[127.0.0.1] (Charles D Neely): #...Vulcans are extremely capable of waiting. One of the best descriptions #of patience is having something to do while you wait. The Vulcans are #capable of high order calculation and thought inside the mind. If you #can work on your projects while you wait there is no reason to be in #a hurry. perhaps so, and yet again perhaps it is a cultural difference in a similar manner that, given the endless rebirths and focus on the present moment that is often emphasized within Buddhism, perhaps such practices as sitting has enabled the Vulcan to remain absorbed even without alot of stimuli (this may be the essence of 'nirvana' or 'zazen' despite their mystical and practical descriptors (the first an extinguishment of craving the objects of desire, the second a static absorption in the present moment) #>#>Discipline - Practicing the emotional control of cthia or the rigors of #>#> Kolinahr requires a considerablde amount of self control #>#> and medi[t]ation. what is "Kalinahr"? I could not find it in the online dictionaries the equanimity of the way is not simply a kind of emotional control, though I know it may have been portrayed this way at times by Terran media (:>). instead, look to the measured perspective of the Masters of taoism, their acceptance of the twists and turns even of exciting times (a story relates a sage nodding and saying 'so it is' each time a new twist of 'fate' rended an inversion of the circumstance) focus and attention would seem to be a very important part of the more rational species or culture, and I presume the Vulcan no exception to this (cf. Japan and some Chinese). meditation (by its various forms) would probably be essential to early training in any disciplined system of education if these qualities were considered 'standard' ----------------------------------------------------------- Pat Whittaker : #According to the Vulcan Dictionary copyrighted by Prof. K.V. Zvelebil #and Dr. M.J. Zvelebil, the defination of c'thia is "reality-truth, the #way things are". I believe they got this from "Spock's World". This #dictionary is available on the net but of course, I can't remember where #it's located. yes, here is the URL at the Vulcan site: http://www.ludwig.ucl.ac.uk/st/StarTrek/Vulcan/Vulcan1.dic ------------------------------------------------------------------ marketa@kestrel.ludwig.ucl.ac.uk (Marketa Zvelebil): # ...I was ...ammused to read last night in "Spock's world" How Surak's # student was sitting on his doorstep for many days before SUrak decided # he was worth teaching. This 'story' is found in many Zen-master-student #and Martial-arts-master student relationships. yes, a particular story about Bodhidharma (the 'First Zen Patriarch in China') in which he is said to have let a prospective student stand in the snow for many days (weeks?) before the student finally got his attention and demonstrated his sincerety by cutting off his own arm the challenge to patience is extremely valuable in determination of the worthy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Marketa Zvelebil : #>to read last night in "Spock's world" How Surak's student was sitting on #>his doorstep for many days before SUrak decided he was worth teaching. This #>'story' is found in many Zen-master-student and Martial-arts-master student #>relationships. hattar (Talal S. Hattar): #Duane ripped this off? UGH! I'm so bitterly dissappointed. I've been #thinking all this time that Duane is one of the finest and most #innovative authors who really should have mainstream novels and #treatises, and here I discover that she borrowed it all from the #world of Oriental philosophy. I'M SO DISSAPPOINTED. DISHEARTENED, EVEN! she made plain reference to this in her book if memory serves ------------------------------------------------------------- cdneely@[127.0.0.1] (Charles D Neely): #...how one would go about creating such a training program. Discipline of #the mind and the senses. That is what meditation is about. Meditation is #based on something. Zen meditation is based on the focus of the void. let us discuss our perception of this. when I sat with Zen Buddhists in temple I did not gather that 'focus on the void' was the major objective, but instead 'focus on the breath' and 'attention to the here and now' were the prime elements of zazen (sitting zen; sitting absorption) this is certainly a training of the mind, yet unlike some rigorous workout of intellectual logical analysis (which may well prove beneficial), in zazen the challenge is to remain passive as the thoughts and feelings course through (if they do -- apparently with extended practice or very calm individuals this difficulty, called 'monkey mind' dissipates) #...The idea of disciplining the mind through various control and #meditation techniques is one of the reasons I like this web. If we can #debate the validity of Surak's philosophy, why can we not try to develop #some of the other arts as well??? precisely. I would encourage this as a productive enterprise. within Buddhism (with which many people associate 'zen' practice and philosophy), there is a principle which may be somewhat related to the Vulcan IDIC ('Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination'). it is called 'upaya', and relates to the variety of means by which we may come to nirvana, the extinction of the dissatisfaction of life why not (re? :>)discover the training techniques of the Vulcan adepti, inclusive of mental discipline and philosophic complexity. there is a very fruitful foundation to be found within Indian, Chinese, Japanese and American history from which to draw, not to mention other cultures into which Zen has reached # We are also talking about creating a martial art for the Vulcanophiles #so why not some of the rest. assuredly, which is my main incentive for joining this discussion -- I think that what has been written about Vulcan ideology and discipline is ripe for new perspectives on Taoism and Zen, regardless of ultimate origins or inspiration. I would suggest Xposting the threads in which this occurs to groups like alt.zen, alt.philosophy.zen and alt.philosophy.taoism, as well as to a syncretic group such as alt.magick.tyagi Path: Supernews!kudonet.com!not-for-mail From: I@no.self (!) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.fan.surak,alt.zen,alt.philosophy.zen,alt.philosophy.taoism Subject: Re: C'thia (Vulcan) and the Way (Zen/Taoism) (was Re: surak-philosophy) Date: 19 Jun 1997 03:15:28 -0700 Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services Lines: 19 Sender: tyagi@bjt.net Message-ID: <5ob0s0$j8r@kudo20.kudonet.com> References: <199706131323.IAA10687@tuvela.shikahr.com.inter.net> <19970613.231047.5351.2.cdneely@juno.com> <5ns1n6$2ci@nr1.calgary.istar.net> <199706171744.MAA02042@tuvela.shikahr.com.inter.net> <199706171745.MAA02069@tuvela.shikahr.com.inter.net> <19970617.234939.5047.0.cdneely@juno.com> <5oaaak$c8b@kudo20.kudonet.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (!) NNTP-Posting-Host: kudo20.kudonet.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Xref: Supernews alt.magick.tyagi:12993 alt.fan.surak:6716 alt.zen:64341 alt.philosophy.zen:15182 alt.philosophy.taoism:14174 I@no.self (!): #however, quickly we enter into a Thelemic (cf. Rabelais/Crowley) dilemma. # if at any moment the Vulcan (or indeed any individual) may discern that # an action is "against c'thia" (Terran 'illogical'), then how an any sort # or reliability be maintained? it is a Thelemic dilemma because in the # philosophy of Thelema the individual is presumed to have a 'true will' # by which she regulates and discerns hir most perfect activity, and thus # it compares directly with this example of disobedience #as I say above it appears to enter into a type of 'ethics' in that # it cannot be completely presumed that what the individual establishes # as "c'thia" is necessarily to be so in the overview of the action # taken. the authority will probably review the action and determine # itself whether it was 'right' (cf. officers ordered to perform heinous # acts of violence in situations like WWII Germany; this exact ethical # dilemma is resolved by the courts in support of disobedience even by # Terran standards within the film 'Nuts') the film was not 'Nuts' it was 'A Few Good Men'