To: alt.zen From: ! (tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com) Subject: Re: Taoism, Zen Buddhism, and Sufism Date: 49940614 |: Zen Buddhism, from the little that I know, more seems |: to stress an inner type of realization... hmm... I find Taoism stresses |: more on uniting by becoming aware of the outer and flowing with it, |: and Zen Buddhism more with the inner... the inner returns to the outer the outer extends to the inner |...inside depends on outside, |outside on inside. when we imagine beauty, ugliness is born |...zen has sayings such as "When tired, sleep. When |hungry, eat." This seems to me to be focussing on the outer. tired/hungry inner sleep/eat outer rectify and reify |: differences in approach between Taoism and Sufism... can anyone comment |: on this? yes |: ...is Taoism very disciplined? which taoism? how can an 'ism' be disciplined or undisciplined? |: I get the impression |: from the Tao Te Ching that it isn't, but rather very free and |: undisciplined, in contrast to *organized* Sufism and Buddhism, which |: seem to be very disciplined. see the taoist priests and the rigid systems of sex for immortality |: ...Sufi and Buddhist sages outside of |: the traditional organizations may have different approaches. sages don't approach, they are only pointed out | According to Alan Watt's book, The Way of Zen, (as I remember) zen was |originally fairly undisciplined. watts is a poseur, but then again, who isn't? zen cannot be codified or organized, though it may be inspired within an institution |The discipline only developed when the |nobility started to send their offspring to be educated in the monasteries so it is said. this does seem to be reasonable, and it gives good reason to think that zen in West will never become popular due to its degradation. |...Some masters, though, have taught against |meditation, as it is likely to become a ritual, and get in the way of |enlightenment. one cannot teach against meditation ritual is meditation enlightenment cannot be stopped by any means |...it could be seen that there is a false opposition between |discipline and undiscipline. Discipline could easily become something |forced and unnatural, wheras SOMETIMES things come easily when you stop |trying to force yourself, and just do (or not-do) them. the river flows the wind blows the shadow knows ------------------ To: alt.zen From: ! (tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com) Subject: Attachment Date: 49940628 |>grasping leads to suffering, says the dogma-buddha |>healing and magic(k) are no better or worse than zazen (no difference!) | but don't cling to either | if you want to end suffering, | sez dogma-magician bark! |>healing is bodily enlightenment |>magic(k) is application of dharma in closed system |> no competition, just perfection | Because of interdependant co-origination, | there are no closed systems. | It is all in the implicated order. thus who applies? what system? no closed, no open no me, no you when the tourist asks for directions we must first know where the tourist *is* so as to provide orientation-fix then the 8-fold path blossoms like inverted lotuses! | no need to fear entropy or | the 2nd law of thermodynamics the buddha wears diapers | But this does not disprove magic(k), | Dragons or Invisible Beings or | dogmas of whatever color. (;-) in scientific dogmas there is no 'proof' when the spotlight comes to the Dragon Cave then does the Serpent HIDE! the Dragon is effervescent blue ---------------------------- To: talk.religion.buddhism From: ! (tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com) Subject: Re: zen and rules Date: 5 Nov 1994 02:29:02 GMT |>| How can one be a Zen monk and not be a Buddhist? absorbed but no longer asleep, the zen monk inspires awakening |> ...what's the difference between a monk and a normal person? the monk dedicates hirself to following the intuitive wisdom |> if a person likes material so much, then why bother to be a monk? perhaps it would be a way to address the attachment to material | ...IF a monk is ever in a situation where he CAN have sex, and suddenly | he feel like having sex. Why shouldn't he? avoid 'having sex'. intimacy may lead to awakening, however. be chaste and the process of awakening will be inspired even during coitus |Just because he took a vow? that is up to the monk. vows are not wisely broken. if a monk takes a vow to give up physical intimacy this should be maintained as long as is possible and resumed immediately upon breaking. vows are not laws, but they preserve a steady progress which can be disrupted by guilt or shame. if a vow has served out its purpose, then once the monk is sure of this condition she should dispense with the vow and no longer claim it. if the vow makes hir a monk, then she must abandon monkhood. |Isn't that building an ego, sort of? vows often build ego, yes. ego is not a problem unless it becomes inflated. ego is very helpful in practice. the reason it has a reputation for problems is that strict organizations cannot tolerate egos and thus keep them out, preserving a very hearty group-ego in the process. ------------ To: alt.philosophy.zen,alt.zen From: ! (tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com) Subject: zen Date: 19 Nov 1994 00:50:13 GMT |"How can I find out what zen is?" THE question, yes. various options come to mind: * study books which contain the keyword 'zen' there are many tomes, and probably best to approach from breadth of overview or through interest of writing taste than anything else. the first can be found in encyclopedaea and various supplementary keywords may be isolated within the initial search (historical group and individual identities that are associated with the term, along with cultural contexts, etc.). the second can be a random sampling as designated by bookstore or library shelf and based upon palatability/interest. use a glossary and/or a dictionary of terms (Shambhala has one on Zen and Buddhism which is quite excellent, for example) absorb information and formulate rudimentary questions * talk with various beings about things associated with 'zen' perhaps start with humans: local or postal contacts who associate with the term (such as a 'Zen Buddhist Temple' in your area if there should be one); local or postal learning establishments, such as universities, publishing houses or community centers. move on to nonhumans: start with those most like yourself, such as mammals, birds and reptiles; move on to the more obviously different entities such as insects and other arthropods, limacine and other gastropods, and perhaps alien intelligences; then move on to the plants (trees especially - they know quite a bit about zen), clouds and other 'nonliving' entities like streams, clouds and stones; then if you are really diligent, move into the city and begin conversations with the various technological innovations constructed by humans (such as computers); finally seek out and diligently question the nonordinary entities such as unicorns, faeries, djinn, dakinis, devas, asuras, raksasas, hungry ghosts, gods, demons, bodhisattvas and buddhas contrast perspectives and challenge extreme statements about the term * engage activities and locations which are associated with 'zen' this will of course vary, from eating specific foods and engaging behavior- forms, to sitting in very particular ways, staring at nothing or at certain objects, perhaps chanting, ringing bells, bowls, doing yardwork, shooting bows, repairing motorcycles, etc. give each a fair chance and then if you wish move on to something else. that which attracts most spend the most time with so as to obtain deeper experience when possible. also visit the various workfarms, temples, zendos, monasteries, gardens and mountain retreats see how some aspect of the activity or location may be implied by the term * make up your favorite definitions and go from there how does the word sound? of what does it remind you? what would you *like* it to mean? what variations or unusual meanings can you imagine? what would be the *opposite* of that taken as true by the authors of books and monks in their cells? explore and expand beyond capacity the possible meanings of the term, being as irreverent and heretical as possible compare and contrast these with those you may have heard elsewhere * abandon the search have a cup of tea and enjoy the sunset -------- To: alt.zen From: ! (tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com) Subject: Re: Bodhidharma didn't get it? Date: 21 Nov 1994 19:50:24 GMT |Does the water want to be a mirror for the moon? Does the moon want to be |mirrored in the water? I want to kiss you |Does a flower need to think of somebody seeing its beauty? Wouldn't that |be vanity? pick me! pick *me*! ---------- To: alt.zen From: ! Subject: Re: Teachers, Students: Choose? Date: 21 Nov 1994 21:24:59 GMT |...whats more important - the sincerity & enthusiasm of the student |or the total accomplishment ( realization/teaching ability) of the teacher? the ego-fulfillment of the teacher is most important. teachers need good rides, and students satisfy the teacher's need |yes, many say its a balance - but - could a sincere, motivated student - |learn ( this is dangerous) by themselves? never. they must be ridden until they are broken. no exceptions |..."Makyo ( hallucinations etc) and "pseudo-nirvana" - will you fall into |these side roads if your sincerity/discipline fails? yes. the 8-fold path leads through the Valley of Death |How DO we make that mighty leap - certainly not by mere words. meditate until your legs fall off |What do you think? I am but an egg. I think of everything simultaneously and explode -------- To: alt.zen From: ! (tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com) Subject: seeing clearly Date: 21 Nov 1994 21:03:54 GMT |In a Zen training situation, the teacher's ability to perceive what you |understand and where you are sticking are critical. If his own |understanding is faulty, how can he see clearly how to help you? understanding is not necessary; to move with the Way is to teach and learn |Wonderful! There is no life and death, no pain, no war, no greed, no |hunger, no hate, no racism, no violence, no murder, no gain, no loss. All |sentient beings dwell peacefully within their true nature. Is that what |you see when you look around you? the cup turns in upon itself and I drink tea |>...if every master died, Zen would not die with them. | |But is Zen the Perfection of Wisdom itself, or a means to realize the |perfection of wisdom? the end of wisdom |Sincere practice is your true teacher. Why waste your time crossing the |street to see some old fool in a robe? compassion, vulnerability |...If the teacher is not realized, what would he teach? dross and flotsam; how not to realize true nature; buddha mirrors, all |Is he going to sit at the head of a class and deliver lectures on the Flower |Garland Sutra, or something? probably. those who know too much speak too much |Do you take notes, or what? taking the notes, he does not notice; soon the teacher has no knowledge |Did you work with one you felt was a dud? Why was he a dud? Was he a |lineage holder? If not, on what experience do you base your opinion? the dog lifts his leg and my face becomes wet with enlightenment ---------- To: talk.religion.buddhism,alt.zen From: ! (tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com) Subject: masters and substances Date: 21 Nov 1994 22:17:01 GMT |You mentioned that Alan Watts was drinking whiskey out of a paper bag. taoist sages are said to have drunk tea and wine |This reminded me of an article by Allen Ginsberg about the Tibetan |Buddhist teacher who founded the Naropa Institute in Boulder; he |mentioned that he was drunk much of the time. I find it strange that |people who would teach meditation would have the need for alcohol (?). sitting quietly reading news I cannot see a person on the screen. only small white letters which appear in reply to my finger-tappings perhaps those of whom you speak had their problems with compassion, which is seldom instructed in the ascetic and rigorous monastery aside from thrusting the monk into the world of the suffering every so often. who are we to say what type of bottle is needed for suck? ------- To: alt.zen From: ! (tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com) Subject: Re: Zen Date: 23 Nov 1994 00:39:17 GMT |Zen practice is tough. It takes effort to make no-effort. when I was your age I used to walk 60 miles through blizzards just to get to school. then we thanked them for hitting us with sticks ------- To: alt.zen,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.polyamory From: ! (tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com) Subject: Re: buddhism and falling in love Date: 28 Nov 1994 21:24:12 GMT |Is it possible for a being seeking enlightenment to fall in love. yes |Is the attachment to one's lover a hindrance to non-attachment and |enlightenment? it can be, yes. this would depend on one's needs and place along the path. non-attachment is the equilibrium. some attempt to pit DEtachment against attachment by not maintaining any social contracts of monogamy, for example |If one is in love with someone, does this mean that one should love |all other beings to the same degree and in the same way, or perhaps |to the same degree but in different ways? 'should love' is the problem. required love is false love that dies a nasty death. being open to that sort of relationship is the best that I've been able to do. the trick is to dive into the jealousy and live it, communicating diligently with my mistress |Is falling and being in love an attachment that is healthy early on in |the search for enlightenment, but is overcome or transcended at higher |levels? transcended through a resolution of detachment and attachment into non- attachment, yes. that is, 'falling and being in love' is a condition of codependency which is important in initial human relationships. if one realizes a resolution of detachment and attachment then the 'in love' part (and the anxious adherence which it inspires) grows into a more mature dedication and engagement too many times we are told that 'getting over attachment' (through DE- tachment) is the same as nonattachment. I haven't found that this is true for me. I feel that honest indulgence and expression of emotions keeps me human and, combined with disciplines, allows me to unfold in quite unexpected ways |Is it the case that one should love all beings to the same degree, but |in different ways? again, 'should love' is the problem I see here. to the extent that we have unresolved issues between ourselves and others, so we will have different relationships with them. as we are different people so we will have different mesh with each person we meet. what *can* be maximized is open sincerety and dedicated presence. this dedicated openness will lead to different intensities and natures in our relationships and allow us to engage the beauteous samsaric world as the very heart of nirvana ------ To: talk.religion.buddhism,alt.zen From: ! (tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com) Subject: Re: An intellectual Approach to Zen (LONG Discussion) (Was etc....) Date: 2 Dec 1994 11:34:37 GMT |"Meditation is to enter without a place to enter; | Wisdom is to depend on nothing." | |"The Way is realized through the mind. What should it have | to do with a sitting posture?" the blue jay flutters from limb to limb, screeching the robin skitters along the ground, silently stopping and starting BOOM! the gunshot creates a flock ------ To: alt.zen,talk.religion.buddhism From: ! (tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com) Subject: Re: Saw Buddha or Bodhisattvas? Date: 20 Dec 1994 01:39:53 GMT |one of Nagarjuna's disciples saw him as a lice-ridden dog! true buddha-sight! |How do you know that the person next to you is NOT a Buddha or a Bodhisattva? by the way they smell |My teachers have said over and over again that the person or being that |teaches us the most, forces us to use and learn about our mind the most |is an emanation of a Buddha or Bodhisattva. false. those who put you to sleep as they speak to you and then WHAM! wake you up suddenly! |I doubt that I have accumulated enough merit to warrant this kind treatment, merit is delusion-tool. cling to it with great hesitation. it has not the power of the Buddha for liberative quality |but since I am practicing and have met teachers in robes, I have to ask, |"Why not?" why not indeed. you are the perfect flower of awakening, blossoming within the crude puddle of slime not knowing, I am drawn to smell of your fragrance transmission |Look around, you may not recognize them at first, but there are undoubtedly |Buddhas and Bodhisattvas all around you. preposterous! look at that pox-ridden mass of a woman! she is Tara of the Glorious Cleft? Bah! |How else would you have met the dharma? only through diligent sitting. sit sit sit sit sit sit sitsitsits its its |Peace! END