To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org
From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nigris (333))
Subject: Magick and Art
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:42:46 -0800 (PST)

49990127 IIIom (also posted to Usenet)

in Thelema93-L Email List, TF wrote:
# ...art...is all symbology, if you study a painting
# long enough you can see it's meaning in depth and the depth can
# sometimes be incredible. 

studying art is not artistry, it is art appreciation, and this
may be 'all symbology', but artistry is much more than this.


# When you do a ritual if you concentrate hard
# enough through all the symbology you can see more depth..and that can
# sometimes be incredible. When combined these two..well..it's
# unbelievable, I believe.

combining ritual observance with ritual enactment can be awe
inspiring.


#    If for instance..you could just paint what you feel inside..and
# show the world the glory you have felt wouldn't that be something? 

"Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in
 conformity with Will."  -- Crowley. I've been considering this
from the standpoint of science for a long time and have
developed a model within which to understand it. 

     http://www.hollyfeld.org/Esoteric/Avidyana/Gnostik/l.scire.fn

I've only begun to understand the mechanism of art, though it appears 
to be related to the science in that science produces knowledge from
the generator of activity whereas art produces activity from
the generator of knowledge.

that 'showing' is expression, and, where intentional and skilled,
produces both an experience and a product, however ephemeral and
disconnected this product may be from the experience.


# ...see ...it can be done, but only and that is only through
# symbology. 

what is it that we could use a measuring rod to determine whether
it *had* been done (i.e. that someone had expressed exactly what
they felt)?  isn't expression a subjective voice to a subjective
experience, without exacting dimensions?
 

# ...is there any of you who would believe
# in the power of creation of the artist..a power that is like 
# the power of the infinite. 

all mages are artists as well as scientists.


# For in philosophy there is always a supreme being who made us..

Western fallacious philosophy, perhaps. there is not always a
Supreme Being in world cosmologies.


# but where did this supreme being come from?

imagined to make sense of the perceivable.


#    So any thoughts on the power of our own imagination to creation?
# Any thoughts on the power of art to express the unexpressable through
# symbology? Any thoughts on symbology period? 
 
without imagination novelty would never be possible. imagination
is the seed of true creation and of the destruction which serves
as its basis.  we only believe that something is "unexpressable"
until we meet with an expression of it. whether we think that a
work constitutes "a good expression" is determined by our ability
to appreciate artistic forms (and their elegance) as well as our
taste or personality.

symbolism is the language with which the imagination speaks,
and the depth and complexity of its lexicon can combine with
the expertise and skill of the artist in the medium of
expression to inspire all manner of perception in response.


DS:
# Every true piece of art is a spell, a highly charged talisman.
# My introduction to magick was because I was an artist.  I 
# reached a level of "betweeness" or meditation when I paint.  
# The world goes away, time becomes distorted, and all that 
# exists is the "process". (I am gone and only become aware 
# of the mundane when I "break".  It was and is similar to a 
# ritual.  I know I am successful when I realize that the same 
# "state of mind" is achieved.  (Of course everything under 
# Will.)  My mundane self steps out of the way.

I agree that every true artistry is spell and every masterpiece
is a talisman. however, I think that the spells of artistry can
produce crude works which hold no value as magical items.  at
the same time it may be possible that a masterpiece constructed
by a bored artist could prove devoid of any spell.


# Art is a science in that some knowledge of technique must 
# be achieved to make "great art". 

this is confused. there are sciences of art which are necessary
in order to produce masterpieces, talismans. art and science
are related but different, just as engineering is an art which
uses physical principles discerned in scientific enterprises
to produce practical results.


# It is a religion for the statements made above.

artistry is a spiritual experience, but it does not qualify as
religion in the sense of a social religious edifice or the
typical social roles and functions available outside its culture.

 
Tear Farlen <splendid_thing@yahoo.com>:
# The art that flows from an artist should always be from their heart
# and minds..not from what others tell them. That is why I can't stand
# taking art classes..hate it.

one option available to the student of art (who wishes to learn
hir discipline via the constructions of hir culture) is the art
class. within good art classes the science of artistry is
presented to the student in a manner which makes available the
techniques of the ancients for hir apprehension, along with ways
to assimilate these techniques.

this is not the only means by which a science of art may be
engaged, however. one may also strike out on one's own, either
without support (and thus severely hamstringed in the sense
that one is without the hundreds of years of culture which has
succeeded in developing a complex science already) or aided with
the tools of books and the internet, art communities and media.

    
#    I see all magick does touch on this subject. 

of course, because it is partakes as much of art as science if
it is adept.

tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nigris (333))
--------------------------------------------------------------------
if you read this on Usenet, notice that this is an elist posting and
it's more likely I'll see your response if you cc me.
____________...oooOOO---occult@hollyfeld.org---OOOooo..._____________
To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe" to occult-request@hollyfeld.org
To unsubscribe your@email.com send "unsubscribe your@email.com"
http://www.hollyfeld.org/heaven/elists/occult.phtml