From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 30 07:33:04 1996 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id HAA16937 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 07:33:03 -0800 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id HAA21456 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 07:33:02 -0800 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA24909; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 09:59:36 -0500 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA24899; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 09:59:30 -0500 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id GAA18554 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 06:58:12 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id GAA14003 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 06:58:10 -0800 Message-Id: <199601301458.GAA14003@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Islam a Prerequisite to Sufism? To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 06:58:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <01I0CK9IQFWY90TTYK@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> from "MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu" at Jan 23, 96 11:58:11 am From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 5133 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO 49960130 Peace be with you, my kin. The honorable Mackie Blanton wrote regarding the finger gesture in salat: |From what i understand, this gesture derives from Sunnah. It is |considered an almost imperceptible but subtle sign of caution and |warning to Iblis to stay his distance. That was one of the explanations given by others, yes. It appears that there is some variation of ritual form within Islam, which is not really all that surprising to me (most religions I have studied varied significantly across their culture), though I have heard several Muslims suggest that 'there is only one way', and so I think it somewhat funny that I find a great variation in thought and practice within the religion. |Most Muslims raise their finger once and then bring it to rest with the |hand as the one praying continues his or her prayers. Some sects, |however, gesticulate this finger numerous times, which apparently |is not directly Sunnah. So how is 'Sunnah' determined, exactly? I gather that there is no central authority in Islam besides Allah -- the imams and sheikhs may coordinate to some degree but there is a wide variation (esp.of justification/explanation) among Muslims in many areas. Is 'Sunnah' (tradition, I think) interpreted by scholars and saints and then rendered to the people who listen to them? This could lead to greater and greater differences (not a travesty if we see it all directed toward the Most Merciful). Does 'Sunnah' get regulated by Allah in some way? This would, if we could find out for sure (not just based on someone else's interpreta- tion of scripture), show us the core of Islam. |...How can there be so much attention paid to *Hal*, *Muqammat*, and |"Say Allah and you are Allah" -- when at the same time on this list |there seems to be so little basic knowledge of Salat? Please forgive me, but I do not know what 'Hal' or 'Muqammat' mean. Could you explain what these terms signify? Perhaps those who are of different cultures approach Islam in different ways. Perhaps some must come from steep angles, others from shallow. |Doesn't this suggest that one has to a thoroughgoing Muslim before |one can even consider--and only at the encouragement and selection |of others--bcoming a Sufi? By your text you seem to imply that 'a Sufi' is something akin to the traditional structures such as Mevlevi and Naqshbandi. There is some controversy about this, though I doubt very much within the Sufi communities themselves. :> To some becoming 'a sufi' is a gift of Allah for Hir own reasons and we may not be able but to prepare for it. You suggest that preparing to become a Sufi includes becoming a Muslim. There are many types of Muslim religious. Certainly there are commonalities, yet there is a wide range of meaning associated with the term itself, including 'one who knows the will of Allah'. I agree with you that, given your meanings of these terms, a very serious grounding in Islam is important to the introduction to the Sufi community, though I doubt it is absolutely necessary in the short-term. Some sheikhs might see the potential in a student to gradually introduce them to Islam while accepting them as Sufi -- though perhaps on a personal and individual basis so as not to upset the wider social acceptance of shariah. |It seems to me that the experience for many of us is more important |than Allah. And this is HHallul and shirk. I am unsure what you mean here. I would very strongly agree that there is a serious issue in regards the fanaticism which has grown around salat and its particular manifestations within Islamic cultures. If one was very sensitive to Allah's guidance, one might throw all of Islam out, start with Allah, and reconstruct one's own necessities through that guidance. This may be what sheikhs encourage when guiding those who cannot or do not wish to maintain shariah, some of the sheiks no doubt hoping that their murshid will be brought to the straight path through the mercy of Allah's influence. And yet I do not think that this sensitivity to the guidance of the All Powerful One is commonplace, and this may be evident to imams and sheikhs who, seemingly with some fanaticism yet perhaps in their wisdom, place such extreme importance upon salat and the other 4 Pillars as they have come down to us in their manifestations. |Say Iblis, who comes in many forms, and you are Iblis. I gather that this is a satire on 'Say Allah and you are Allah', above. I'm not familiar with either saying, though I gather at least the first is from traditional sources. I wonder what 'say Allah' truly includes, and whether it is a mere vocalization or whether it might include such things as prayer and fasting and pilgrimmage as is taught within orthodox tariqas. I gather also that Iblis has not the power of Allah, and so this satire, as I perceive it, would not be supported by orthodox tradition in comparison with the earlier version. Comments encouraged. Peace be upon you, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (see ftp://ftp.hollyfeld.org/pub/Esoteric/Usenet/Sufism)