From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 5 18:29:37 1996 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id SAA04493 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 18:29:36 -0800 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id SAA24253 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 18:29:35 -0800 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA21163; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:37:24 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA21150; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:37:22 -0500 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16839; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:30:21 -0500 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id RAA20090 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:29:07 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id RAA28960 for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:29:05 -0800 Message-Id: <199601060129.RAA28960@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth To: tariqas@world.std.com (Tariqas Elist) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:29:05 -0800 (PST) From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 4317 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO 49960105 Assalam alaykum my kin. Abdual Alim: |>...the sheepishly way people following without question The sheikh is not to be questioned but followed without even a thought! This is the role of the true murshid (I hope I have that word right). |>or looking for truth. Here of course many questions can assist, but ultimately only Allah can provide us with the truth, and this not often verbalizable. |>For the most part people her in american take the leaders information |>at face value If one has been taken into the fold of a sheikh, is this not expected? I know it is tempting to look outside the shadow of the sheikh's robes, but is it really of value to do this? Might we become more confused than assisted by the variety of voices and expecially those who do not know us as well as our teacher/guide? |>and if past examples of this do not have ending that I like. I'd like to hear more about what things you did not like. |>I without question want to ask question talk about everything going |>on in my life to include my dreams. I'm sure that some sheikhs differ in what kinds of questions they will allow and when. The sensitive sheikh will likely speak with hir students about items of requirement *after* they are fulfilled. Some may refuse to say anything! And what are we to do? Is this any different than the mysteries of Allah?! She is teaching us a valuable lesson, surely. Habibullah: |...Americans (and Westerners to some degree) think of themselves as |individualists, and are in some ways. However, they also tend to be |very susceptible to cults where they loose all their individuality |and critical thinking skills. Perhaps they are really seeking balance? Well, are you sure these are the same people doing this? Perhaps Americans are just like very many other large groups of people and comprise a spectrum of individuality/cultishness. I notice that the greatest byproduct of Americans' 'individuality' is a failure to connect to each other, to find a sacred community, to achieve lasting and continued relationships, etc. In this way those who come from American culture may find such things attractive within the mystical communities of other, older cultures. |Is there a way of benefitting from positive aspects of a relationship |to a teacher and to membership in a tariqa without loosing the ability |to make independent judgements when necessary? I would warn strongly against this. The sheikh-murshid relationship is a very special one, and (comparable to guru-chela in Hinduism) requires the absolute trust of the student. Surely there are times for questioning and discussion of teachings and practices, but to have the student evaluating the assignments of the guide before undertaking them would seem to place the ego of the student as an obstacle to hir development. |Can submitting to a teacher facilitate individual growth? |Under what conditions? I think this is a very important question. Individual growth is indeed possible within such a relationship, but it must be founded on mutual trust and a sincere dedication. |Is individual growth the goal? Not always. Sometimes the dedicant will be challenged to 'cut hirself back', through begging for example. This is not the same as the 'individual growth' of learning a new mystical practice or absorbing the text of the saints. It is a kind of 'pruning' which perfects the interior of the sufi, and it is this which might prove the most objectionable to the new student. Imagine someone saying to you: give up your friends, they do not follow the Way of God; give up your livelihood and take to a more humane and loving way of life; go out and sell crafts upon the streets so that you can see the meanness of the social person. These are things which a sheikh might say, and yet if we find them objectionable and have the leeway to refuse, then we may miss a very valuable opportunity to perfect our soul. I wish to make it plain that I am *NOT* in a relationship with a human sheikh at this time of the kind I have observed above. My comments are based solely on brief exposure to texts and communities which call themselves 'Sufi', as well as to similar groups and sources. Alaykum assalam, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com