Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,sci.philosophy.meta,alt.consciousness,talk.religion.newage Subject: _Libre_Scire_: Magick and Science (LONG, ongoing) Date: 22 Nov 1995 09:53:08 -0800 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 205 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Distribution: inet Message-ID: <48vo24$isa@jobe.shell.portal.com> References: ftp://ftp.hollyfeld.org/pub/Esoteric/Avidhyana/Gnostik/l.scire.fn Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.magick.tyagi:4927 alt.magick:58748 sci.philosophy.meta:21475 alt.consciousness:20169 talk.religion.newage:44565 [Reference: ftp://ftp.hollyfeld.org/pub/Esoteric/Avidhyana/Gnostik/l.scire.fn] ky951122 [original from personal email: F_landry@tka.com (Forrest Landry)] |Observations about the _Liber_Scire_ definitions:. | |In definition b. [as specified] there is a statement of direct 1:1 |correspondance of meaning between the ideas/concepts/processes of |"the scientific method" [as applied] and "to learn". That is correct. [from _Liber Scire, referenced above] # b. the scientific method (TSM) - LEARNING # The ONLY means of establishing correspondence between ideas and # phenomena... |Considerable empahasis is placed upon "only means" [as |used in the strong sence]. What warrents this approach?. Mostly in inspiration of Gregory Bateson, but also as a challenge for those who run across this document to think about the ideals of science, what it ought to include, how expansive the terminology should be, etc. The idea presented here is that what is today taken for 'the scientific method' is usually a specialization and microcosm of its most grand possibilities. |Can we say that _anything_ can be made/done in _only_one_ |fashion/method/process? I can't with any certainty, no, but I can maintain a particular position within a research effort in order to spark discussion/investigation along particular lines, especially if I find value in the perspective I'm professing and can argue its placement within the text generated by previous occultists concerning this topic. |...it is possible to "learn" about mathematics and NOT perform the TSM |[as specifically outlined]. I think that the model presented *may* be applied in the interpretation of someone's absorption of numerics and arithmetic as academic pursuits. One need admit of the ambiguity of the terms within the TSM as outlined. I can only provide an example in this case and see if I can justify my claim. Here is what is outlined as the scientific method by my (very ambiguous) standards (from _Liber Scire_): # Function A # i. Attention # ii. Discrimination # iii. Focus Notice that this forms the basis of all aspects of the method itself, since A is a Function of B (B(A) or 'Function B of A', etc.). I must first muster sufficient attention to do the study, then I must be able to discriminate between the study subject and its background. Then I may apply myself to the task. Here are Functions B and C of this complex model: # Function B (A) # [This incorporates (A) in each of its steps.] # # i. Comparison (A) # ii. Association (A) # iii. Identification (A) # # Function C (B) # [This incorporates B (A), in each of its steps.] # # i. Inquiry (B) # ii. Reflection (B) # iii. Analysis (Induction/Deduction) (B) # iv. Understanding (B) # v. Synthesis (Imagination/Modelling) (B) # vi. Expression (B) This is a psychological model of how a human being comes to create and express knowledge or understanding. In order to come to understand mathematics one must compare (using attention, discrimination and focus) number versus nonnumber, associate symbols with functions and operands, and identify certain basic mathematical formulas and applications. In order to compare number versus nonnumber one must inquire as to which is each, reflect upon the responses received, analyze their meaning, understand the communication, synthesize it with the rest of what we have absorbed, and express it to ourselves (and/or our teachers) in ways which exemplify our new understanding. This is the last and most complex tier of TSM as I am portraying it: [insert: # Function D # [This incorporates C (B), in each of its steps.] insert end] # 1. Create worldview (C) [The first one is generated during childhood.] # 2. Create hypothesis (C) # 3. Interpret hypothesis within worldview (C) # 4. Project performance method for hypothesis (C) # 5. Perform and gather results (data) (C) # 6. Consolidate data (within or outside worldview) (C) |The learning of mathematics constitutes a tautology within which no |"experiments" or "correlations to sensory perception" is necessary |for learning in the strict sence of forming knowledge structures. I disagree with this paragraph. We are not about to divorce the learning from the student, whose worldviews may or may not incorporate the principles of number, may be at wide variance from anything mathematical, and may even have to adopt a new worldview in order to absorb the instruction. For this reason when I say that my terms are ambiguous I mean to describe this in as much a psychological breakdown of the process of epistemology and formation of knowledge as the foundation for logical statements concerning magick in the investigation of its science and discipline. |I would be very interested in any material you could send me on | various versions of TSM and references to material |discussing this. I referenced some authors in the paper itself (Thomas Kuhn, whom I was able to find in one or more of the texts below, is an example) but will add this 'Related References' section in a revision of the document (I may actually reorganize the whole thing a bit differently): [insert: Related References (pulled off the House of Kaos Library shelves) On Magick and Science: _Book Four_, _Magick Without Tears_, and _Moonchild_, as well as many other works by Aleister Crowley, sometimes known as the Great Beast and other very naughty names, edited by various individuals, such as Hymenaeus Beta, Misters Symonds and Grant, or otherwise self-edited. This text: _Perceiving Ordinary Magic, Science and Intuitive Wisdom_, by Jeremy Hayward is where I found Kuhn, and Bateson also if memory serves. There was also a book I've now lost called something like _The New Renaissance_. Hayward does come the closest to placing in psychological terms a formulation of consciousness such that 'magick' as described by those occultists for which I have preference can be readily apprehended and applied. On the Scientific Method and various approaches to Science and Consciousness: _The Holographic Paradigm and other paradoxes_, as well as other writings by Ken Wilbur, David Bohm and Fritjof Capra _Godel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid_, by Douglas R. Hofstadter, as well as other writings or works of Hofstadter, especially with Dennett, such as _The Mind's I_. _Steps to an Ecology of Mind_, as well as other works by Gregory Bateson _The Psychology of Science_, as well as other works by Abraham Maslow _Dichotomies of the Mind_, by Walter Lowen _The Nature of Human Consciousness_, edited by Robert Ornstein _The Psychology of Consciousness_ and other works by Robert E. Ornstein _Frontiers of Consciousness_, edited by John White _The Frontiers of Being_, by Duncan B. Blewett _A Second Way of Knowing: The Riddle of Human Perception_, by Ednumd B. Bowles _The Natural History of the Mind_, by Gordon Ratiray Taylor _The Mechanism of Mind_, by Edward de Bono insert ends] Additional contributions to the 'Related' list would be welcome. |thank you for your time, |Sianonne, |Forrest. You are very welcome. My pleasure to follow on in my studies. |_____________________________________________________________________________ || The Law Of Immutable Ownership: None Can take from you, That, Which you | || \---/ F_landry@tka.com Truely Own. - the Forrest Glen | || \ / Bind, Banish, Ballance: Advanced research in the devolopment of | || V an Applied Ontalogical Metaphysics; a technology of high creation | Interesting sig. ;> tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com nagasiva