From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Mar 31 15:16:38 1996 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id PAA07508 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 15:16:37 -0800 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id PAA26176 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 15:16:35 -0800 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA27091; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 17:31:18 -0500 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA27086; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 17:31:15 -0500 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id OAA24410 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 14:29:52 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id OAA05139 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 14:29:50 -0800 Message-Id: <199603312229.OAA05139@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Shah, Islam and Sufism To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 14:29:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: from "Zafer BARUTCUOGLU" at Mar 29, 96 10:21:19 pm From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3721 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO 499603319 Assalam alaykum, my kin. Brother Zafer BARUTCUOGLU writes: |Idries Shah was one of the first authors I read on Sufism. Mr. Shah has a reputation among some Muslims as being overly liberal for their tastes in the least and mistaken on several accounts in his writings, especially where it concerns religions and the mystical core of all true religions *as* sufism, etc. Shah was also one of my first reads in the subject. Inspirational. I'm not sure he'd be considered 'conservative sufism', however. Usually I categorize him as merely 'sufism' in comparison to Sufism (of the religion of Islam). |...now I fall into a discussion on him. He comes up here every now and again. I've quoted him to the elist several times, along with other scary teachers such as Osho and even Aleister Crowley. I like these fellows and wanted to see how my more conservative brothers would review them. :> [relating a friend's experience] |...Idries Shah's opinions that Islam was right in SOME ways, and |that Koran had SOME truth in it, and that Mohammed was JUST a high |ranking, though very high, Sufi, I'm sure it is possible to find writings by Shah which indicate a greater degree of certainty and absoluteness than what you have said here. It seems to me his words are usually more meaningful than can be described for him. At times he implies the collective 'islam' of submitting to Allah (religion or no) while at others he speaks of the religion of Islam and its limitations. I can really see the value to this diverse approach and wonder if your commentary isn't too extreme. I'll have a look in my library again tonight or this week and see if I can find some conservative statements by him. |...can't a person be a Sufi, noun, 'soo fee'; typically of a particular mystical order associated with the religion of Islam; sometimes implies special status of awareness and/or ability; sometimes associated with spiritual purity and sometimes as well the powers conferred as byproducts; said also to be the lover of Allah, a mystical relation of some dimension reflected mostly in poetry and song (inspiring Troubadors in Romance Period of Europe); normally at least an inspired individual who partakes of the remembrance (zikr) of Allah and the testimony to his Unity and His Glory (shahadah) in the presence of a guide (sheikh); occasionally a traveller and wonderworker, serendipitous hero in adventure tales |and a [Muslim] at the same time? noun, 'muhz lim'; popularly of or related to the religious complex known as 'Islam'; sometimes associated with literal submission (and the peace it brings) to Allah; often one who upholds the 5 Pillars of Islam: prayer, tithes, pilgrimmage (to Mecca), the Double Testimony of Faith (in Allah as the One God and Muhammad as His Prophet, and the celebration of Rammadan (the month during which Muhammad received _The Qur'an_. Sometimes there is a sixth added, holy war. |Does sound like nonsense, Not at all. Check out all the possibilities. It all depends on what you choose to mean by the terms in question. I consider myself muslim (submitting of God) and a sufi (in the sense that I study the subject and wear wool :>). There are 'universalist sufis' who will accept Muslim or Buddhist or Satanist. |but the basis of Islam is that denying ONE word of the Koran is the end of |religion, This seems like a rather extreme statement to me also. Could you explain what brings you to these conclusions? Are they traditional? I do not say that you are wrong. Only that I am unused to your beliefs and so would come to understand them more clearly. Peace be with you, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com