From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer)
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Initiation of Christian Mages
Date: 13 Sep 1997 12:05:27 -0700
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49970901 aa2 Hail Satan!  [re the files found in the following directory: 
			   http://www.hollyfeld.org/heaven/Avidyana/Gnostik/
			   beginning with the file-name 'xtianmgk'.]

VMYL54F@prodigy.com (GUEST PASS):
# ...you state a recurrent theme as follows.
# "My intent was the construction of a magickal setup, something which 
# I interpret as having investiture of magickal ability, the idea is 
# that it is an EMPOWERMENT, a kind of recharging and connection, to 
# the pathway of power which makes magick."
 
# ...Christian magi should have a ceremony of investiture, that links 
# them in power to or thru pathways to the Source Divine, and/or magick.  

in organization there are mystical communities whereby this path may be
chosen (monks, nuns, etc.).  as formulae for solitaries it is unknown
how well the material from orgs would work.  we'd have to see real
induction ceremonies from monasteries or convents.  I've come across
perhaps one or two in my life and haven't copied them or saved them.


# I like the concept of empowerment as you defined it.  However I think 
# that many if not most Christian mages already have had initial 
# investitures in the form of Baptism, and some Confirmation <being 
# sealed with holy chrism oil by the Bishop as soldiers of God, in the 
# Catholic faith>, and then participating in community worship perhaps 
# through church, and/or communion which is also much more < a most 
# holy union, healing, acceptance,saying yes over and over again, and 
# too much for me to cover here>. 

I gather that these initial investitures were under the auspices of
the religious body with whom one is affiliating.  my understanding
is that generally these bodies do *NOT* accept practicing magicians
into their number, and that if the Christian mage is honest with hir
kin, she will be excommunicated or at least abandoned to the outside
world (the dust being wiped from sandals, etc.) if she continues
to maintain such a practice.

therefore I had assumed (correct me if I err here) that these invest-
itures and baptisms would become essentially void or useless except
for application within conventional religious community.  alternatively
one may have to obtain a valid investiture from one's religious or
spiritual authority which *does* accept the magical path as legitimate.
this may only be by oneself (and I think that this should be considered
rational, especially when the mage is a solitary), one's deity, or it 
may be served by a local group.


# I was fortunate in a sense to be able to make adult 
# decisions on the above issues.  I am a Catholic convert and later 
# became a teacher of Catholic Converts.  Therefore my Baptism was an 
# adult decision with tremendous power for me, as was my Confirmation, 
# done at the same time,  with the denying of the Adversary and the 
# classic exorcism of the Rituale Romanum done at the same time,as part 
# of the normal ceremony, although most people do not realize it is a 
# form of exorcism per se.  

do you mean to say that you are still a Roman Catholic and that they
know full well of your occult involvements?


# Yet all who undergo this rite say the words to renounce the evil one. 

any chance of getting a hold of a copy of the exact ritual text?  it may
be important compost for a construction of a formula.  of course this
rite will be considered an example within a particular framework (the
Roman Catholic, conventional liturgy) rather than what will necessarily
apply for all (which is what a formula attempts).


# I do think there are ceremonies of investiture and ways of linking by 
# oath to the Divine Source.  While I do not know a formula per se, use 
# of the sacramentals such as Holy Water, and Chrism oil would seem to 
# be implicated.  

yes, water and/or oil was something I had in mind also.  I gather that
today's conventional churches which perform baptism do so with water
and/or oil.   this we may presume at best duplicates the initiation
of Jesus with suffusion into the holy spirit (descending dove, etc.).
perhaps the 'Denial of the Adversary' is the second part of that ordeal,
as it would constitute baptism by fire (desert) and earth (Devil/tempt).
as one's relationship to the Adversary changes, this type of ritual may
also have to change.


# A Christian Mage might swear a mighty oath as part of an investiture 
# right, see a sample oath from Donald Michael Kraig's book which is 
# not Christian per se, and which has elements I do not totally agree 
# with but is binding nonetheless:     
 
# Taken From the Ritual of Magickal Obligation in Donald Michael 
# Kraigs book High Magic, excerpts:

I'm breaking it up in response, since it is really a series of oaths,
rather than any one particular oath.


$ I (state your name, magical name and/or motto) do this day spiritually 
$ bind myself to a magickal way of life.  

here is the main one, though we are not told what a magical way of life
includes, why one need be 'bound' to it, etc.  this is probably the most
valuable of the oaths herein.


$ I will keep secret all 
$ practical and theoretical knowledge from those who in my judgement 
$ are not ready to receive it, for to tell the truth to someone who 
$ is not ready to accept it is the same as telling that person a lie.  

this is a common clause imported by various mystery schools.  it serves
the security of the individual mage as much as hir humility, but may
become a disempowering limitation over time (especially if misunderstood).


$ I will not claim to be anything more than I am, a student of the 
$ magical wasy of life, light love and freedom.  

indicating its Old Aeon affiliations.  this would not work for me,
since my Current is Love: being the reconciliation of light and darkness.


$ Not being an initiate of an order, I will not initiate anyone.  

I understand this as a hold-over from initiatory orgs.  likely not
really valuable for the solitary.


$ I will perform all practical magick in a place concealed and apart 
$ from the gaze of the outer world.  I will not display my magickal 
$ implements nor reveal the use of them to those who are not truly in 
$ need of such help.  I will not do any magickal working for those 
$ not truly in need of help.  

these are also rather useless from my point of view.  oaths are best
set not as limitations but as goads and guiderails into depth of
experience.  where they become *solely* limiting restrictions they
are best taken on as temporary experiments, disciplines.


$ Before those with little knowledge of magick I will only perform 
$ simple and well known techniques keeping the deeper wisdom and 
$ methods for those who are themselves ready to learn.  I further 
$ solemnly pledge never to work at any important magickal task 
$ without first invoking the highest divine names connected therewith.  

these are possibly useful though technically hampering oaths.  for
the wild like me they will not suffice (since I aim to keep my power
open and without restriction), but for those who are willing to undergo
the ordeal of disempowerment in pursuit of perfection, they may be perfect.


$ I especially pledge not to debase my knowledge of practical magick 
$ to purposes of evil and self seeking.  If in spite of this I 
$ do so then I invoke avenging angels and forces that the evil may 
$ react on me.  

again indicating its Old Aeon character.  I do not recommend Old Aeon
metaphysics (that deriving dualistic, Manichaean notions of 'good',
'evil', 'God' and 'the Devil'), and consider them to be dangerous,
but understand that they may be necessary for some mages.


$ I promise to treat all people with equality, no matter their race, 
$ religion or sex.  I will not slander.  I will not lie.  I will not 
$ spread rumors.  

all good guidelines for ethical behavior.  as oaths of magical initiation
they would be of variable value.  for me they would not serve.  for those
whose character allows it, they may be fine.  generally I do not
recommend oaths of any kind until one is very advanced.  they are like
high-technology tools and can be unknowingly used to disable oneself
(by accident, at the behest of an organization, order, cabal, etc.)
or others.


$ I undertake to continue my practice of the magickal way of life whether 
$ I work with others or am unassisted.  

this is another valuabele oath: a dedication to persistence.


$ Finally if in my travels I should meet a stranger who claims magickal 
$ knowledge, I will examine him or her before acknowleging that such is 
$ the case.  

this is very intelligent, though no real value in an oath.


$ I will reveal to that person nothing of the inner wisdom I have gained, 
$ save that which I could give to any man or woman, until I am sure 
$ that his or her claim to knowledge is true.

I don't understand the value of this except as protection of security and
humility, stated above.  this secrecy-mongering tends to debilitate the
occult community and its knowledge-bases, however.  beware.


# The rest of the regular oath as follows?:

'regular oath'??  it sounds as if someone is retaining Masonic terms.


$ Such are the words of this, my obligation as a student mage. 
$ whereunto I pledge myself in the presence of Divinity,  and of the 
$ great avenging angels and forces.  By my own will, and under their 
$ watchful vision, if I fail to keep my magickal obligation, may my 
$ magickal powers cease until the time when I can rightfully have 
$ them once again given unto me, so help me with my mighty and 
$ secret soul. 

here is the penal condition of the oath.  with lesser strictures I
could maintain this myself.  with that stated above I think it may
be a gooey trap set for the faithful but ignorant.


# Now I put that out there to see what you think of oaths in general as 
# much as anything else, to elicit your opinion not push that one. 

I like oaths, but I recommend that they include something of supreme
value or be abandoned as interference.  alternatively they can be
temporally limited to a certain duration, and this would be helpful.

penal dissolution of power is a waste of time, and instead I would
suggest something more radical and obvious (being torn apart by the
minions of the Adversary if you maintain this cosmology, or perhaps
something to happen to the documents I sign or how I am viewed in the
world -- something very horrendous).

I'm with Crowley in his _Book Four_ in saying that 'magical oaths
*cannot* be broken'.  I think they are of such substance and power
that it is simply not possible to act contrary to them by virtue of
our very nature.

other oaths (nonmagical) are like crutches, setting up a support for
our work prior to being infused with the Spirit.


# ...your original supposition:
# 
# I. Go to the place of Baptism
# II. Get baptized by a Mage
# III. Follow the Spirit of God into Barreness
# IV. Answer unto the Tempter Adversary

yes, and V. should apparently be Fulfill the Prophecies of the Past


# ...I disagree with the concept as Jesus as magus, 
# I view him as human and divinity. In addition I dont view priest as 
# magus, or John the Baptist as magus per se.  

I really don't know to what you are referring here.  with what are 
you really disagreeing?  that the concept of 'the Magus' is a valid
cosmologic concept/event/person?  that the character of Jesus is
described as having attained to similar state?  are you saying that
'the Magus' is not human and divine??  or that Jesus was an unique
individual whose efforts cannot ever be duplicated?


# I do think it is better for example to receive baptism ceremonially 
# through a priest, however only through the movement of the divine do 
# these things actually happen.  That is why in an emergency the 
# Catholic Church allows for baptism by even a pagan, non christian as 
# long as the intent is clear.  God then works through that.  

as I said above, however, what priest would knowingly baptize a mage?
will you conceal this fact from him?   I cannot find a way to really
reconcile deception with the Christian path, magical or non, can you?


# Therefore if a Christian Mage underwent an investiture alone using 
# key ceremony it might still be valid. 

'validity' has a way of becoming the prerogative and sovereignty of
religious organizations.  my own preferred terminology is that it 
might be *effective* (in achieving what the initiate seems to need).


# I think that the Christian mage must deny the Adversary as in 
# the baptism and confirmation, however the Christian mage will 
# continue to have to deny the Adversary the rest of his/her days. 

what does 'deny the Adversary' mean to you?  don't you find that
your admiration for the Jungian reconciliation with the Shadow leads
you to a cross-roads where 'the Adversary' is the Shadow and denying
Hir causes many of the problems which the religious seek to remedy?


# We all experience the barreness as cyclical.  

I don't know what this means.  I am speaking here about 'the Desert
Experience', which some relate to the Dark Night of the Soul, an
Ordeal which tries our passion, our dedication, and tempts us to
abandon the ways of wisdom we have learned.  it is a testing of our
resolve and an attempt to dissuade us from the intuitive knowledge
we have gained in the baptisms of Water (John) and Air (Spiritus).
I gathered that it is an unusual event in the mystical sphere, and
yet we may ritualize it magically.


# C.S. Lewis suggests these 
# cycles are natural and human which is why the habit of daily 
# devotions/prayers, spiritual exercises are important for those 
# cyclical times of barreness. 

please explain this more in detail and to which text of Lewis you
are referring.  we've got a lot of them in the haus library and
I may wish to reference the cyclic model he promotes, thanks.


# While I think that the story of Jesus is certainly important as you 
# state: "My intent is not to initiate but to discern the relevant 
# pattern or formula of the story of his life and apply this as part of 
# the entrance into the status of Master of the Temple <BinaH> or Magus 
# <Chokmah>" I do not think it is important for example for us to 
# participate in old monastic flagellation or in something like 
# Crucifying ourselves in imitation of the story.  

agreed.  a "formula" by my reckoning is a mythic theme upon which the
artist and mage varies in the creation of mystery experiences.  that
is, it is a kind of symbolic metaphor, a central composite of meaning
which can be translated to a variety of personal and social contexts.

on the other hand, what may not be "important" for one individual may 
be "essential" for another.  I would not restrict the particulars of
translation from formula to actuality.  if a mage needs flagellation
(self-whipping, an old and reliable mystical technique, not even
requiring the break of skin -- see various Sadomasochistic orgs/clubs
or the Gardnerian Wiccans, who include this as part of their rites)
then have at it.  if one does not need this, then avoid it.  same goes
for crucifixion or martyrdom generally.


# In this sense intent is important not recreating an ultimate formula 
# per se.  Looking at the story for guidance is not the same as re 
# creating the formula. 

yes, I'm not out to present the One Perfect Manner of Investiture.
my goal is come up with an essence, like a mathematical formula that
can be used in applications, a boiled-down pattern or theme which can
be varied to fit any context or individual life.


# In addition to which since my opinion is different on Jesus in so far 
# as his Magus status, I would not necessarily encourage a repeat of the 
# formula.  

I think you are now talking about the particular means by which Jesus may
be said to have *manifested* this formula.  I agree that the particular
means may not work for others.  it is surely controversial (which I think
is funny given the emphasis placed on this character's life), and there
are many different political and religious differences between the time
when the Biblical gospels said to have taken place and today's world.

I do think that martyrdom is a valiant and beautiful approach, and to a
limited extent I find great value in it, though I don't expect others to
agree with me on this point, even though it is supportable, Biblically.


# Many other oaths, ceremonies, initiations and so on might be more than 
# sufficient.  

the particulars need not be addressed.  the objective is to sift out a
transcendent pattern which can be used to flesh out a magical empowerment.


# I am not trying to become demigod, or God.  

leave that to the mage.  you may not wish to become these things.  some
Christian mages may wish to do so.  I am not here to argue the particulars
of cosmology or ethics, only to ferret out a mystery formula.


# ...I will send you a part two with a very Christianized Ceremony that 
# may be used in conjunction with or as an initiatory rite quite possibly. 

thanks.  I look forward to receiving it and will Xpost this to Usenet
(alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.christnet,talk.religion.misc, others)
with the hopes of further discussion and depth.  in the meantime if
you have interest in discussing the prophesies Jesus is said to have
fulfilled, I would love to hear about those.

blessed beast!
________________________________________________________________________
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