Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: ! Newsgroups: alt.zen,alt.religion.wicca,alt.philosophy.taoism,alt.pagan,alt.meditation.quanyin,alt.magick.tyagi Subject: Re: The Tao does not exist. Date: 1 May 1996 18:31:48 -0700 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 84 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4m93a4$1md@jobe.shell.portal.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.zen:30697 alt.religion.wicca:27331 alt.philosophy.taoism:3489 alt.pagan:157265 alt.meditation.quanyin:1146 alt.magick.tyagi:7914 |>|>|...if the Tao that can be named is the true Tao, |> this is what Lao Tzu said in Tao Te Ching, yes |> |>|then what are you ...Taoists calling Tao? |> we taoists are calling tao that which is the Mother of the |> 10,000 things, the Named Tao of Antiquity and the Quean of |> Heaven; Progenitrix of All Manifested Forms and Planes |That's All? there are subtle layers of tao here. first the tao without name, then the tao with name, then the intertwining fishes, and then the blossoming of the 5 elements (this is my present favorite system of metaphor) in the sense you may mean it (beyond mere quip), 'tao' is used historically in many different ways, including reference to 'road' 'way' 'saying' 'speaking' 'Way' (in a universal sense), 'Reason', 'Logos', 'God' and many ways more imaginative |You're right about the ambiguity and uselessness of Tao. You |seem to suggest that not only do you and yours have a special |*understanding* of it, you also have a secret *use* for it. there is no use possible for tao. tao is useless and vague. to understand may be valuable, but ultimately it is senseless to insist upon a correct vision of a changing dynamism, each moment shifting in configuration, a vast sea of volatility I have no secrets. I know very little and am learning to know less day by day, breaking down the social coersion-energy in these hotpoint-manipulation gloves did you feel *that*? pass me a screwdriver, will you? |I don't understand this business about the veils at all. veils are the boundaries amidst separate states of consciousness, whether fabricated, biophysical or psychological or some combination thereof. on the journey of the Return (metaphorical) we may pass through many shifts of consciousness, some cultures and systems call them different names, such as 'satori' or 'samadhi' the veils are metaphors, one powerful to the Middle-Easterner, and may be seen amidst many mystical systems (in Buddhism as stages of awakening, in Hinduism as breakage in the attachments to the physical world or in shifting closer to the deity, perhaps receiving their spiritual blessing/grace |...personally, I've never seen a veil of mystery. Does it |veil a mystery or is it the veil itself that is mysterious? some connect it with development of consciousness, that we must shift to a specialized form in order to achieve certain individual characteristics, concealing from ourselves the ultimate nature (brahman, buddha-nature, sunyata, etc.) of Ma realizing particularity we are ignorant of generality. becoming aware once more of generality we have left specialized consciousness behind, a dance between poles of manifested presence |big thing out of whipping a particular veil away in order to |'make' a revelation. Without veils there would be nothing to |reveal, would there? Everything would be plain to see. actually the focus on revelation within religious tradition is often less about concealing from those who desire or may be ready for the experience than it is about playing over and over the BREAKTHROUGH of consciousness. this may be a more positive framework from which to see the Western biblical traditions, for example, as while they do perpetuate tribalism at the expense of volition, they also have a capacity to adjust to shifting conditions which I admire |...what's the point in responding to something if you've *missed* |the point entirely? points are the problem. round yours out, it won't hurt as much