Path: shell.portal.com!usenet From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (mordred) Newsgroups: alt.satanism,alt.magick.tyagi Subject: Re: 'Reclaiming' Satanism? (Was Re: Show and Tell Time) Date: 19 Dec 1994 20:54:54 GMT Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 208 Message-ID: <3d4ruu$166@news1.shell> References: <0bf_9412070827@astaroth.sacbbx.com> <60131@toad.com> <3cj1tf$rd6@news1.shell> <3csm1a$jnc@news1.shell> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (mordred) NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.satanism:12865 alt.magick.tyagi:1631 Kali Yuga 49941219 "Mr. Scratch" and I write: |>|...the imagery attracts too many social-rejects and malcontents. |> |> That is to be expected. Those who separate themselves from 'social-rejects |> and malcontents' ought not associate with Satanism, as I see it. |You tend to decry the bounderies placed upon Satanism by others, yet you |do not hesitate to do so yourself! Examine your above statement and see |if you can spot what I'm talking about. My declaration is one of INclusivity and acceptance of 'miscreants', not a resolution of boundary about what should or does constitute Satanism. If you want to separate yourself from those you decry, then I suggest you'll have a hard time doing this within such a movement as Satanism, which, as you say, attracts such individuals. I was agreeing with you and suggesting a course of action given what appeared to be your preferences, nothing more. |> too often people avoid the phenomenon and then, when beginning to assume |> social authority fall headlong into the trap. It is much like 'anarchy', |> 'nazism', and 'fascism'. |...boosting ones own ego and fantasizing about being ubermensch.... is |extremely common among Satanists. Swaggering about, behaving like Billy |Badass, talking of "power" and their overall importance when they can't |even pay the rent, hold down a job, or maintain a relationship. These social values (paying rent, holding down a job, maintaining relation- ships) are over-rated. They do not constitute the foundation of 'importance' except in the social milieu. True 'importance' is self-respect, and this is, as you seem to be pointing out, not confirmed by braggadocio. Yet it is very important that people play these 'importance-games' with titles and whatnot. Whether supported by society or not, they are legitimate attempts at self- transformation and projection. If they incite approval, fine. If they bring no reaction or negativity, so much the better. Exploring the ego is a very potent and instructive activity, regardless of whether this fits into societal mores. |>|I suppose it allows them to imagine they are on the top of the social- |>|strata, rather than on the bottom. |> |> Precisely, and also rather than doing away with the silly top-bottom |> paradigm altogether, but many Satanists (and, apparently, Setians) still |> don't understand this. |Well, again we see your own egalitarian vision of Satanism, but many of |us "still cling" to good ol' elitism (pigs that we are). I don't claim that you are pigs. I claim that you are buying into some- thing which has no material value and some very harmful symbolic problems. The material value one might obtain from rejecting the top-down paradigm is that one may then exploit both ends of the spectrum (enjoying the fruits of sexual paradise while dallying with genius philosophers like yourself). The symbolic problems are that we LIVE in this gravity-sink, and to promote 'down-bad' when we are ONLY going down into the ground upon our death and likely not moving very far from that is self-torturing. |We are not all equal. Under the law we are supposed to be. It may not always work out that way, yet I like the idealism of the Constitutional Forefathers of the US. We are not all the SAME. This much you argue below and I agree. |I am better in some things than others. Still others are better |than me. I do not find this threatening, as I am damn good in what I |do, and am always improving. I like to see that recognized, and it |irritates me when I am confronted or inconvenienced by those I consider |little better than insects. Recognize that you are conflating skill with moral superiority here. We each have our different skills and advantages. The concept of being 'better than insects' is rather ludicrous to me without some referent (we are not better than insects at a number of tasks/abilities). |> Part of the benefit of Satanism is in doing things which break one's |> attachments to other-centrism. That is, it is really not that important |> what sort of reaction we might get from 'the common folk'. |I do not think this is true. Satanism DEPENDS on some connection with |society, even if that relationship is antagonistic. I don't understand why this has to be the case. I like the apparent CoS attitude of movement toward separation from the social herd and greater freedom of insulation. I don't see why Satanism necessarily includes social connection. One might as well argue that one's Buddhism requires this (and I can see the truths of this, though the alternatives are just as valid). |Satanists do not separate themselves from society's attachments, they |simply specialize in a getting a certain kind of reaction. Some of this is semantic difference. By 'attachment' I do not mean goods, I mean emotional balance associated with certain reactions and relationships. That is, we benefit from DEconditioning ourselves to behave along the lines of herd-mentality, choosing when and where to break from society, including all the way if we like. |Unless you |are living in the wilderness dressed in skins and living off the land, I |think it is safe to assume that we all depend on social interaction. We depend upon it to the extent that we are conditioned or that we choose to do so. People can and still do live very separate, wild lives. The break from attachments to social interaction help everyone, whether we are living in the thick of an urban sprawl or alone in a jungle eating fruits. |>|Once the majority of the truly adept throw up their hands in despair and |>|leave, the movement will come to be defined by the riff-raff. |> |> I guess this means that those such as yourself, who divide up the world |> into 'adepts' and 'riff-raff' will take your leave. I'll be happy to see |> you go. |Keep in mind that you also divide up the world: Those who divide up the |world (in this case, Adepts and riff-raff), and those who do not. ;) Here's the rationalization I give for the above: My division is a response to yours. It is only temporary and I don't really take it to action until I see you doing so. In effect I am putting forth a rhetoric about which I feel strongly, namely that those who divide people into two different groups are more offensive to me than those who do not. I am an exception to my statement in that I find myself to be quite inoffensive to myself generally and I don't normally think in these terms. That is, I don't often choose to associate with people who find value in such divisions (and I don't find much value in it myself, preferring it only for this practical exorcism). Sometimes yelling "BE QUIET" at people who are yelling works very well. It doesn't mean that I am setting an example, just trying to stop the noise. With the needle of dualism we may pluck the sliver of dualism from our hearts. [re: CoS] |Church-wide communication system that puts members in contact with one |another and allows them to exchange information...personal or otherwise. |Lupo says they have a mailing list (this would certainly qualify) but I |have yet to see this confirmed or even hinted at by CoS members of |officials. I still have my doubts. Let me quote you from some information which has been available for many years. You claimed that you keep abreast of these things. I think I'm about to prove you an exaggerator. :> "We don't solicit memberships; however, if you wish to join us, to show your support or appreciation, you can become a registered member. For a one-time registration fee, you will receive a card identifying you as a member of the Church of Satan and a questionnaire. Filling out the questionnaire indicates your more serious interest in the organi- zation. By completing and returning it, you will be included on our bulletin list so you can receive announcements pertinent to your affiliation. Your file will also be reviewed for further involvement; we have affiliates/special interest groups of all persuasions who are working on many fronts toward the fulfillment of our Satanic destiny.... "If you're looking for activities, we suggest you follow the directions in _The Satanic Bible_ and further the cause by forming your own grotto or group. If you have already done so, contact the Church of Satan with details regarding the type of people you're interested in, the focus, structure and schedule of your group, and if you wish to be contacted regarding new members.... "...When you fill out your application for further involvement, let us know that you would like to be considered to be a qualified contact point in your area, for media representation and/or group activities. "The Church of Satan has steadily become less centralized from its beginning. There are now established satellites who take care of activities, expanding to reach an increadingly wider audience." Quoting Anton LaVey, in _The Church of Satan_, by Blanche Barton ---------------------------------------------------------------- The means of connecting with other individuals is through the Grotto System (revised), which is unofficial and allows affiliation on the basis of motivation and activity rather than on prestige or charisma. The 'activities' mentioned might well include discussion or philosophy. My impression, after a modicum of research in CoS materials, is that the CoS is focussing on the inspiration of INDIVIDUAL Satanists, not groups, and may well feel that groups are not always the catalysts for the development of this individualism. That is how I would answer your criticism. A network does seem to exist, but it appears to be concealed and/or directed from within the organization based upon the reaction to membership application. In some ways this compares with ToS' finickiness, except in regards energy spent upon the person, not in admissions per se. I see this as a superior methodology. |Sig. change? |Enjoyable. Sure, I change it a the mood suits me. :> It reflects my inner life and is thus a more proper identifier. nagasiva, tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (The Order of K@s Under Satan)