From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (TOKUS)
To: alt.satanism,alt.magick.tyagi
Subject: Embarrassing Satanism (Was Re: Denise's Satanic Bible for Girls)
Date: Kali Yuga 499500225 [here we go...]
Quoting: |dvera@met.com (Diane Vera)

|...the type of insecure adolescent jerks ...  (adolescent in attitude if 
|not actual age).

Denigration of the adolescent age and mindstate.  I think you miss a very
potent and instructional experience and treat it with disrespect if you
merely wish to use 'kids' as an expletive.  It is obfuscatory and sad.

 
|...these are probably the same kids who might otherwise be
|killing cats, spray-painting pentagrams on churches, or doing
|whatever other nonsense they might fancy that the "Lord of Evil"
|wanted them to do if they believed in Satan as a real entity. 

It is too easy for me to look at the children of the world and denigrate
what they see as their spirituality.  I say find the aspect of it which
you admire and remark upon it, rather than continually engaging in
making other people wrong for their actions.  

For example, it makes sense to me that the Church (and the buildings
which symbolize this establishment) would be the object of derision if
not violation and vandalism.  Same with desecration of cemeteries,
which are controlled in such an authoritarian way that they cannot be
utilized for psycho-transformative rites (such as are engaged by yogis
in India amidst cremation grounds, though I'm sure this will eventually
be stopped by the Oppressive and Correct Establishment also).


|I vaguely recall at least one person here in alt.satanism who talked
|about animal sacrifice or something like that when he first appeared, 

I hope you see more and more of it, especially within the context of
a greater respect for the 'meat' we eat.  Animal sacrifice linked with
consumption of the body is a very important and old tradition which the
Judeo-Christian establishment is hot to put down, as are CoSatanists.  

I do understand that those who prefer to think of 'pets' as different
in some fundamental way from 'foodsource' may argue to the contrary,
and when you speak of cats I think that there is something else
going on (predator competition, for example), and yet would you rather
have the 'Humane Society' killing them or a Satanic cult?

Here's a suggestion for you.   Consider that killing cats is like
abortion.  If we don't institutionalize it (including the care and
concern for the well-being of the animal prior to the rite), then
some other, less humane means will always be used, including prior
incarceration within horrible circumstances, the unregulated and
'adolescent' rebellious who know the value of the act, etc.

There are many arguments here besides the 'death-metal 'let's kill a
cat for fun' variety, though I think there is room even to argue the
value of this variety of Satanism.  I'd appreciate any opposition
you'd care to bring forward.  I haven't thought the issue through to
completion.  Far from it.  Why do these folks think that cat-killing
is so swell?  Have you actually spoken to any of them?  Is it like
pouring salt on snails?  I've done this, plus pulling wings off of
flies and drowning ant colonies.  I can understand the importance of
transference of powerlessness.  Can you?


|...if all these kids were to become LaVey Satanists, it would help 
|keep them out of trouble 

I'm unsure why 'out of trouble' shouldn't merely be equated with
'from doing things which I don't like' or 'from doing things of
which I do not approve'.  Cf. political actions.  What if these
folks got a *political, anti-Christian leader who knew the
laws and wasn't afraid to go to jail in hir efforts to oppose what
she considers an oppressive institution (Church, State, whatever)?

 
|and keep them from being an embarrassment to us _theistic_ Satanists.

Here's what inspires me to write.  I guess, from what you've said,
I qualify as a 'theistic Satanist', since I treat Satan as a god and
worship Hir as I'm able.

I do not understand your need to encompass all of 'Satanism' under
your wing and identify the various factions with yourself except in 
the eye of the public, to which I say 'who really gives a fuck what
the public thinks as long as our religious practices are protected'?

What I hear you doing is just adding a voice to the condemnation,
Diane, not truly assisting in our freedoms.  Applying more chains,
we are likely to be our own worst opponents.  

 
|LaVey Satanism ...urges them to take responsibility for their own 
|lives, 

I'm going to provide the 'herd mentality' response here so that I
can illustrate the extremes which you are supporting without
additional comment.  'Take responsibility for their own lives' is
usually used to mean 'do what we want you to do and don't cause
any problems which we feel we must assist you in solving'.


|to be "productive aliens", 

Serve society such that we can feel like you are doing us some good
rather than serving yourselves.


|and to learn some ordinary social graces, a.k.a. "lesser magic".  

Conform to the social machine so that we won't have to deal with your
rebellious ways and foreign ideas/feelings.


|(It can be argued that LaVey Satanism is, in many ways, basically just 
|a sexier version of the Protestant work ethic.)

This is my point, and I think that you may be playing into that by
supporting it over honest, angst-ridden rebellion.  Cf. the history
of 'Feminism' and its relationship with lesbians - recently mentioned
in this newsgroup.  Just because you don't like what someone does,
what is the value in trying to stop it or get it away from you except
as a very real fleeing from an oppressive society taken to the extreme
of scratching your kin to get away from the monster?

 
|...to be a productive _theistic_ Satanist requires a level of 
|philosophical sophistication that most of these kids are probably 
|incapabable of.

Usually 'productivity' serves the herd.  I think that it is a waste
unless it first serves oneself.  If it serves oneself to be 'shiftless,
lazy and weak', then it is part of my Satanism ('theistic' or no) to
support this strongly.

I agree that mature religious values are based upon a complexity of
idea and/or experience.  I don't think that education regarding (read 
'indoctrination to') the 'pleasures of literacy' are at all necessary
to tread the Satanic path.  Indeed, literacy and the abiding in the
philosophic realms is often an obstacle to one's Satanism, leading one
to waste one's energies fighting intellectual squabbles instead of
getting on with indulging oneself, coming to Xeper, doing the Great
Whoopie, or whatever one's goal(s) may or may not be.


|I have absolutely no desire for theistic Satanism to become a mass
|religion.  I would like it to be known as a religion of the
|intelligentsia.

Why the focus upon literati?  Why not call it 'intellentsia Satanism'?
The Setians already have a head start in this regard.  I think you're
trying to make definitions for an exclusive group which conforms to
your personal needs, when in fact we might all gain from it if you and
others ceased these petty divisions, accepted and exposed yourself to
whatever kinds of 'Satanism' might rear their ugly heads, and learned
to live with behaviors and people who are purely and perfectly human.

 
|...it would annoy me in the extreme if CoS were to succeed in convincing 
|the intelligentsia and the general (adult) public that Satanism = LaVey
|Satanism.  

You would annoy yourself over the development.  The mind of the
intelligent is not ruled by propaganda, contenting itself in self-
definition and a multitude of perspectives.  Take care who you
presume 'intelligent' and why you value these things as somehow
'better' than others (such as open hearts, sincerety, angst, etc.).


|(Dr. Aquino, PLEASE write a book of your own for the general public!!!)

You sound like a frustrated ToSser.  What would this gain us but a
competing race for 'legitimacy' and 'orthodoxy'?

tyagi/TOKUS