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From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Lorax/TOKUS)
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.satanism,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan,alt.religion.wicca
Subject: Re: Rvw: 'What is Satanism?' (LONG; Was Re: Satanism and Huson)
Date: 12 Dec 1995 17:28:40 -0800
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#From: aptower@netcom.com
#Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 21:11:43 -0800

[much deleted]

#I'm still trying to get a grip on just what modern Satanism is.  

Aren't we all, let alone the more ancient varieties.


#I read LaVey's "Bible" years ago, and found it not particularly bad stuff, 
#just not my stuff.  

I know the feeling. ;>


#I know there are some nasty kids out there claiming to be
#Satanists, but have a hunch they relate to the real thing like a group of
#ten year olds going skinny dipping and calling it an orgy! 

I've been one of the few within the online Satanic community to call
for inclusivity of these 'nasty kids'.  I think a simple nod of
acknowledgement regarding identification is all that is required (not
association or approval).  They call themselves 'Satanists' then that
is fine.  They are in my book.  This whole Qualification Process is
a great deal of the problem with the Neopagan movement, as I see it,
not to mention conventional religion. 

In responding to the following question I rely on a modicum of back-
ground research on the subject and would not claim to be correct or
absolute.  These are tentative presumptions based on what little I've
seen (never met an organized Satanist offline, for example, or seen
any Satanic ritual of which I was aware -- though I'd like to and
will eventually traverse distance northward to do so -- in a Neopagan
Umbanda rite at an Ancient Ways Festival the Abyss and I were once 
minorly assaulted by a guy wearing horns and carrying a pitchfork for
'doing lude things' -- she was sitting in my lap, facing me, clothed; 
yet I think it was unrelated :>).


#Do Satanists or do they not worship a figure called "Satan"?  

Sometimes 'worship', yes.  Sometimes this 'worship' varies extremely
and sometimes Satanists can't really be said to practice it at all.


#How do they define this figure?  

It varies a LOT, perhaps much more than how 'God' and 'Goddess' are
defined (when they are) within Wiccan/Neopagan trads  I'd say the
same goes for a number of gods within the new movements, as others
here have commented from time to time).

I'm attempting to compile a REFerence file for alt.magick which will
incorporate as many cogent posts on what people mean by 'Satan' for
which I have reasonable room, including how they see His history and
how they interact with Him.  Way complex and deluging.  It'll take
a while yet.  My /Satanism directory is only recently beginning a
thorough housecleaning (I may even ask for help).


#As a sort of Anti-Yahweh?  Or is Satan irrelevant to the whole JCI 
#framework, as seen by Satanists?  Just how much of Satanism 
#is rebellion against JCI religions, if *any*?

This is the CRITICAL question to ask any Satanist.  My experience
with a few interviews and some research is that while there is,
as in Neopaganism, a reactionary attitude toward JCI things due to
its arising within the Christian cultural milieu, largely Satanists
prefer to try to 'work past' this anti-Xtianity if it exists.  For
many it seems they don't come close to the JCI trads excepting in
some terminology and a few resources.  

That said, I think there is a BIG argument to be made that a number
of 'new religions' are reactionary to what is presently the orthodoxy.
In fact, I might classify Wicca in just this way, or Neopaganism as
a whole.  Lucky for us the Christian establishment left some of the
vestiges of pre-Christian religion within its own edifice for slight
reference pointers. ;>

The Abyss just gave me a book on a similar subject:

	_Rebellion, Revolution & Religiousness_, by Osho, distributed
	  by *New Falcon Publications*!; 1990

Here's an excerpt from the book's back jacket which I think is relevant:

	I don't preach revolution.
	I am utterly against revolution.
	I say unto you that my word for the future, and for
	 those who are intelligent enough in the present,
	 is rebellion.
	What is the difference?
	Rebellion is individual action; it has nothing to do
	 with the crowd.  Rebellion has nothing to do with
	 politics, power, violence.  Rebellion has something
	 to do with changing your consciousness, your silence,
	 your being.  It is a spiritual metamorphosis.

I think this goes a distance to reflecting what some Satanism includes,
as compared to sociopathy.


#Is Satanist focus on self-indulgence, to the detriment of others, or not?  

It varies.  Mostly I've heard 'to the benefit of my friends and the 
detriment of my enemies', yet self-indulgence is roundly criticized
by some Satanists, and some have a much stricter moral code they follow.


#Like, would a Satanist force *any* kind of sex on another, against the 
#will of that other?  

Would a Neopagan?  I think this question is unanswerable due to its
generality.  I've heard some Satanists proclaim an ethic which would
certainly make this possible, and yet most I've read of online or
in books (esp. the more visible organized variety) eshew violence as
'beneath their high Satanic moral standards'.  There is a focus on
the self, but not always at the expense of others.


#...the old Wiccan Rede, again.  

Most Satanists of whom I am aware do not accept the Wiccan Rede as
their limitation, though some would indeed come close to its ethics
in regards harming others.  There is a slight bias against paths
like Wicca (the more conventional of the occult byways) in part due
the treatment they have received at the hands of biased, typically
uninformed Wiccans.


#What about Lucifer?  Star of the Morning?  Light bearer?  (NO I don't mean
#New Age Light, but shedder of light on whatever to make things clear.)
#Satan alternate name?  Completely different than Satan?  Fallen angel of
#Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah, or much older figure?  Is Lucifer or Satan a cognate
#of Pan/Cernunnos & Co? 

Way way complex.  You said you wanted "simple answers to these questions,
if possible."  I'm not sure this is possible.  All I can really say is
'some Satanists see it this way, some don't'.  The figure of Lucifer
within JCI mythos and Neopagan literature gives a lot of leeway in this
regard (since the name has been associated with very many entities over
the years -- from Biblical Nabuchadnezzar to Leland's _Aradia..._).


#From: aptower@netcom.com
#Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 21:49:05 -0800 (PST)

#...is the Satan *you* relate to a cognate of Hades, Anwwn, (sp?) and 
#other death/underworld gods?  What does Balanone mean by "Prince of 
#Darkness", if not?  

WHOA!  You've switched the conversation from 'what do Satanists believe?'
to 'what is your personal preference in regards a perspective on Satan?'
That's fine, but I want to acknowledge this.  Consider the comparable
question on 'the Goddess' to you in request to generalize.  You may feel
comfortable doing that, but for me it trespasses the Rede (yes, I do
consider myself Wiccan and use the Rede as a *guideline*).

That said, you go on to ask about 'Balanone's concept of the Prince of
Darkness', of which I have no idea beyond his expression.  It does sound
similar to many interpretations of Lucifer I've heard, but then again I've
also heard of many others.

'Cognate' is a difficult word for me to understand.  Personally I see the
cosmos in a wide variety of intellectual ways, sometimes associating the
gods into a glib-glob Monster God like in Christianity.  Sometimes I 
relate to the naturalist philosophies of Asia, such as taoism in that
the strictly personal aspects of the gods are not as important to me as
that hidden Way of all.  Very often I address Kali directly, and I have
consistently shifting visions of Her, from orisha-like Lover to all-embracing
Mother of the Cosmos (comparable to 'the Goddess' of Wiccans).  So I am
going to bypass your query as if it were a general 'you' here in order to
avoid this kind of 'long diatribe' which you indicated you'd have difficulty
reading. ;>

Various Satanists think so, yes.  Most don't bother trying to 'justify'
or organize or composite the gods in this way.


#How much of the principle is "evil" by ordinary standards?  Any?  None?  

Very little, from what I can tell.  The nightmare of the Urban Legend of
Satanism incorporates 'evil', but most Satanists don't seem to accept the
notions of 'evil'/'good', rather interested in a kind of relative ethics 
depending on power, circumstance and emotional attachment (egotism).


#Your defense of the whole thing is what even causes me to question my 
#old assumptions, here.  I respect your brains.  

Thanks.  I was hoping I could make this kind of favorable impression,
since I think there is a GREAT deal to be gained by a mutual understanding
on the part of nominally Neopagan and Satanist (wherever the boundaries
-- if any -- between these two may lie, and I don't presume to know it).


#Do you equate Kali with Satan, somehow?  I don't.  I see Her as being 
#both the Creatress and the Destroyer.  She who gives, and She who takes, 
#life.  The principle of regeneration, if you will.  "She whose dark wing 
#strikes the Dancer in the midst of the Dance, that others may join the 
#round."  (Diana Paxson)  The quintessential Crone figure, to me.

Now again you're talking about *me*, so I'll answer personally.  Remember
that many people see the gods/Kali/Satan much differently than I, and in
some cases there are broad commonalities among Satanists with which I
have no trek and no desire to involve myself.  We can go into these later
if you like.

As I said above, my vision of the gods (Kali and Satan inclusive) shifts
consistently, depending on my mood, what I've had for breakfast, what I've
been reading, and with whom I been talking.  Perhaps this is reflective of
my 'kaotik' nature.  I can tell you my preferences and typical attitudes, 
however.

I like to see Kali as 'all that is not me'.  That is, I am fond of the
almost solipsistic idea that I am alone with Her, more like Yin/Yang
than a radical dualism, in that we each contain the seed of the Other.
I relate to Her through Her personality, part of which I find very well
described within texts and iconography of India and surrounding regions.
I speak with Her in my mind when I am quiet enough, so we have a 
connection which inspires me not only to dedicate myself to Her (due to
Her wisdom and compassion She shows me) but to build a temple for Her,
and advocate the benefit of worshipping or at least coming to a relationship
with Her (as she is 'Earth' in a mystical sense, such as 'world' used to
mean in the archaic times -- all that is, substance, outside me, as well as
'earth' in a soil and planetary sense).

She teaches me a perspective in which women (physical) are Her reflection
within my environment, the Feminine being a clearer Person with whom I may
interact.  Comparably, men (physical) are *my* reflection, the Masculine
being a mirror of myself in some ambiguous way which I don't completely
understand at present.

'Gods' (masculine deities) are therefore, within this one of my preferred
perspectives, aspects of me, Siva of the Nagas (my true name).  Some, such
as Padmasambhava and Satan, are very important Persons among this number.

To try explain to you who 'Satan' is to me is very very hard.  I grew up
in a family which eshewed Christian symbolism on the whole, and yet I have
*always* been drawn by the rumors and fantastic symbolism surrounding the
figure and character of Satan, especially those of rebellion to unwanted
authority (aka Yahweh and anything like Him), as well as eroticism and
artistry (long history of artists devoted to Satan or associated with Him).

I like associating Him with the flesh, especially my own (masculine), as
well as willpower, revolution, and heresy.  


#I still have more to ask, but don't want to bog you down with a whole 
#stack at once.

Let's finish the conversation in result of these and then move on to
your others.  I'm posting this, so perhaps you'll receive other replies
which differ from mine.

Thank you for your interest, Cronie.

Lorax/The Order of K@s Under Satan
 (there is a hidden symbolism here, knneeling to kiss His Big Fat Ass)
tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com