Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.satanism,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage Subject: OrgSatanism (was Re: Paganism's claims of legitimacy & Satanism) Date: 12 Jun 1996 17:10:32 -0700 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 243 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4pnm9o$22p@jobe.shell.portal.com> References: <4naih2$nab@a3bsrv.nai.net> <4nkcho$6t1@insosf1.netins.net> <31MAY199613060988@hdc2> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.pagan:162084 alt.satanism:45034 alt.magick.tyagi:8460 alt.religion:2326 talk.religion.misc:223830 talk.religion.newage:52512 kaliyuga 49960612 AA1 (being a critique of PART TWO of Tani Jatsang's Review of the '9 Satanic Statements'; my review truncated due to lack of interest). jk1604@hdc.hha.dk (Hr. Vad): |SATAN REPRESENTS: Note: not 'to me', but in a grandiose, absolutist manner. |1. INDULGENCE INSTEAD OF ABSTINENCE. .... Note that TJ spends little time here on the problems of OVERindulgence, though these are likely heavily hit by our culture already. |...Above all don't be rude, be polite and kow-tow to lies. CENSOR |yourself, GAG yourself lest you speak from your HEART some undefiled |truth or REAL FEELING. KILL your feelings, DENY them. DENY the |flesh but strive and strive to be something else. ALL of that is |abstinence. This sounds like a childish rant in reaction to discipline. I thought abstinence was simply learning our personal boundaries, and when we say 'no more' this is called abstinence when it conflicts with hedonistic ideals. Nothing wrong with hedonism, but when pursued to extremity it may not lead us where we wish to go. Thus we discipline ourselves and figure out when to say 'no'. Those who can't say 'no' to things and people are usually depicted as having some type of personal problem until that thing about which they are caught serves an organization or social ideal (in psych terms it is called 'dependency' or 'codependency'; in personal behaviors it is called 'obsession' until it begins to demonstrate debilitating effects, at which point it becomes 'abuse'). |...Let them make you feel the need to justify "agreeing" with us when |you have only TOLD THE TRUTH about something that is not relatively |truthful or subject to opinion, but is HARD EMPIRICAL SCIENTIFIC FACT. *sarcasm* Oooo, that must feel good too, basing it on such firm footing. *sarcasm off* |Let them call you COS spaniels for telling a truth when it is only COS |that TOLD THE TRUTH. Uh-oh, some confusion arising now: if everybody is telling the truth or claims to be telling the truth, where will that get us? What if, horrors, people mix lies with their truths? What if it is even more shocking than this, that we can't help TELLING lies due to the nature of the language and how we generalize in order to convey ideas? What if language itself is entirely devoid of a means of conveying truth in the manner you imply, that separated from the experience which gave it birth, it becomes just more propaganda to convert your masses? What if it takes many years of philosophic inquiry (the science of the intellect) to demonstrate this? C'mon OrgSatanists, you can follow this far. Now let's get disciplined and actually DISCUSS these '9 Satanic Statements' (or a few of them at least): |INDULGENCE is the REFUSAL to let ANYONE do this to you, to REFUSE to |censor yourself, to SPEAK from the heart, to DO what you feel and want. |THAT is indulgence. ...a LACK of judging oneself like the ascetic |dualistic xtoids tend to do. Indulgence is BEING. It is not BEING |LIKED. IT IS LIKING TO BE!! :::applause::: Yet all too often the society of which we are apart tells us that we should 'like to be', RIGHT WHERE WE ARE! That is, while you are telling us that for you indulgence has to do with promoting an aesthetic enjoyment of experience and poetic appreciation or something like the Newage spam 'Be Here Now' at the very best, you also seem to be saying that we have similar obligations in preserving ourselves from certain circumstances wherein our voice is compromised, where our self- censor dissolves the content of our true feelings. By itself this is a very wonderful proposition put forward by many great martyrs, and I am glad you see its value. However, I'm as yet unsure that you truly *exemplify* the best ideal of your ideology. A certain level of discernment regarding oneself and one's conditions are of obvious value, for example, as is confusion, uncertainty and the ability to suspend our disbelief (of magical value if nothing else). |2. VITAL EXISTENCE INSTEAD OF SPIRITUAL PIPE DREAMS.... | ...Vital existence ...The 2-point-up star is a glyph for this. It |means LIBERATION, it means normal kundalini release. It means VITALITY, |the physical quality of BEING VITAL AND WHOLE. Like without unchosen circumcisions, or without the harmful effects of "drugs" in our systems? How far should this 'Statement' be mandated or carried out? You aren't really giving these things a context so it is likely best they aren't called 'guidelines' (as is the 'Wiccan Rede') or 'laws' (as is the Thelemic Greeting which Crowley made famous), since even by the 'smart religious' they get twisted toward slave-mechanisms. |....a pipe-dream is? Fake evolutionary theory beliefs, fake belief in |disembodied entities out there. Fake creators (like a god) of man. Fake |idealized states of being like kingdom of god or various other-earthly |ideas where you are no longer a body but just a disembodied mind. In other words, anything which is not materialist that promotes the scientific establishment. I rather doubt that the Church of Satan endorses your rhetoric to the exclusion of competing ideology, however. So far you are merely repeating the 'untrue' or 'lies' interpretation of a 'pipe-dream'. My Bible has: # pipe dream *n.* A wishful fantastic notion or hope. [From the # fantasies induced by smoking a pipe of opium.] and I see both how your usage is quite effectively described by its general meaning (since spiritual revelations are too often taken to apply in contexts for which they were not best placed) and how it is an unfortunate choice (since the visions which such smoking allows are a common Satanic practice of and RESULT from the indulgence which you claim to be otherwise supporting) |means a PIPE DREAM, a WANNABE, a LIE and a "robe" you wear while you |PRETEND to be what you are not. Pretend to know things you KNOW NOTHING |about: pipe dreaming. Sort of like what you are doing here. Pipe dreams are self-delusions, not intentional deception of others which is usually classified as such. Even in the case of pipe-dreams you seem to demonstrate your lack of understanding of the concept, clearly illustrating the teachings through example in a way you did not succeed in doing more abstractly. |It is belief grounded not on TRUTH, .... Belief is never grounded in truth, just in blind obedience. |but on a fantasy that society calls a "religion" or "faith." Something which I contend Satanists ought also apply to the scientific establishment (fail to do this at your peril). [various other extraordinary claims omitted, included in apparent support of her diatribe, such as that "Tantra is not even a religion and is not "Buddhism" at all, though it is lumped as this" as if this aids in some measure to explain 'spiritual pipe-dreams'. And yet it is in the end merely disrespectful, offensive, and a perfect illustration.] |...Ufo-ism, saving aliens, helping man is a pipe dream. Lots of wicca |is a pipe dream, but not all. New Age is a mish mash of many things. |TOS's doctrines are, to the letter, total pipe dreams and denials of |reality. And so are hard-core Fundamentalist ideas. More often I find that those who espouse such certainty live COMPLETELY within a pipe-dream, deluded about their circumstances through self- deception and ignoring the High Priest's admonition to doubt, doubt, and further, to doubt (this is the commonality at least between Satanism, modern Science and Magick; see AC's _Book of Lies_ and SB early on). |3. UNDEFILED WISDOM INSTEAD OF HYPOCRITICAL SELF-DECEIT. ... [TJ's trash largely omitted.] Rather than attempt to review and blast apart the obvious fallacies of Tani's prose, I'd rather propose a few alternatives to her bluster. |Undefiled Wisdom or Inner Truth is a subject we've been dealing with a |lot lately and you all can SEE what the Inquisitors (of the TOS) have |done to us and tried to do (even threatening me with arsenals of guns) |to "we who have it and SPEAK IT." Beware those who speak of 'us' and 'them'. Orwell writes of it. It is a subtle disrespect which the writer offers us, requiring that we somehow participate in their idiotic language games in order to reach their understanding. By abiding it we passively receive their values and communication methods. Ignore these at your peril. |They do exactly what the Inquisitors did and exactly what the Xian |enemies of the Masons did. Again we see the connection made among martyrs, from 'the Burnings' through 'the Templars'. |And what did the Masons do back? SMASH. Did they? I'm unsure this is the case. I'd say they got smart and infiltrated from below to the top, same as many Satanic organizations intend to do with society generally (or purport this in blatant confrontation of political systems). |...Hypocritical self-deceit? Do you know what that is? Well, what |TOS has been doing since 1975 toward and against the COS and |LaVey personally is this. It is better to frame this outside the context of your presumptions and biases. Inside them we will only feel the gist of your annoyance or hatred or whatever it is you are attempting to convey through this obvious use of controversial text (something which only nonOrgSatanists can easily navigate; others are drawn in on one side or the other until, like a pearl, they come out of the conflict intact). You explain well enough the value of honesty and consistency. This is why modern Science continues to be of value to us in the realm material and shall be seen as a liberator of many disciplines thought lost or wayward in previous times. What you appear not to recognize is that black and white diatribes like this one only give the impression of your lack of philosophic maturity, not your development of it. If this is unimportant, as it is not important to some Satanists, then way to go! If not, then you may wish to consider it carefully. |But hypocritical SELF deceit is when you claim to be in favor of Freedom |of Speech and yet are your OWN inner censor, cry over rude words that |might "hurt someone's feelings" even when the words are ONLY EXPOSING A |LIAR to be: "A LIAR!" Hypocritical SELF deceit is when you preach free |speech and can't even speak from your own heart. ... While I tend to agree with this I am once again uninterested in reading Ms. Jatsang's text as it becomes repetitive and polarizing. This review is sufficient for those of my temperament until I find it of benefit to come back to her documents once more. [269 lines relegated to the waste bin] hail satan! tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com nocTifer -- Ensure my response - CC public replies to email http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html (emailed replies may be posted) check: http://www.paranoia.com/coe/