Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) Newsgroups: alt.religin,alt.christnet,alt.pagan,alt.satanism,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage Subject: Satanism and Neopaganism (was Satanism, Wicca, Paganism) Date: 12 Jun 1996 15:55:53 -0700 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 137 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4pnhtp$pi2@jobe.shell.portal.com> References: <4oamgp$hg9@eve.speakeasy.org> <4oaoi3$nbk@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4p1jm9$fjr@news.internetmci.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.christnet:112520 alt.pagan:162073 alt.satanism:45025 talk.religion.misc:223810 talk.religion.newage:52505 kaliyuga 49960612 AA1 karen@snowcrest.net (Karen McFarlin): |...I do not claim to be a Wiccan, nor do I speak for them, |though I am in sympathy with some of their ideas. Thank you for your honesty. You are obviously not a Satanist, either, but we'll let that show through your words. |>|Satan is a whining loser, limping along behind the bloodcrazed YHWH |...I stand by it! I reject the entire Xian cosmology of Good God/Bad Satan. |I reject the whole of this ridiculous duality. Lots of Satanists do too, but they don't necessarily throw out Satan. |>...rampant and incessant hypocrisy of 'love and do as thou wilt' |>dribbling out the side of the mouths of wiccans whilst in the same |>breath deriding their Satanic and Dialbolist bretheren |If you accept one side of the duality then, in order to be even remotely |consistent, you have to accept the other. Lots of Satanists agree with you completely. 'Cept they don't accept *either* part of the dualism about which you are speaking. ;> |Satan is the xian god's alter-ego. He's part of that cosmology. |It is a religion built around the rejection of the xian god |without rejecting the basic duality. You have a cosmic goodguy |(now associated with everything patriarchal and repressive |by professional victums) and a cosmic badguy (now associated with |rebellion against the cosmic goodguy). |I reject the whole baroque silliness. That is a very wonderful understanding of what Satanists call the 'Urban Legend of Satanism', and it is rejected as fallacious and substanceless by countless Satanists. |>Your religion cannot be blamed for your lack of intelligence or |>moral fibre or personal code of honour. |...Is it intelligent to make a fetish of some adolescent notion of the |"dark side"? If it were only an "adolescent notion" (a very interesting epithet, as it relates to our most vibrant times in life, when we are rebellious and thriving in our new selves), then the challenges would come and go quite quickly, and yet they recur, over and over, largely because people like you presume to define other people's religion for us rather than allowing us to speak for ourselves (see a pattern yet?). This has been a common complaint coming from the Neopagan establishment about the fundamentalist Christians. Now it is coming from the more controversial elements of Neopaganism and Satanism as it becomes a common practice there also, like a 'wave' at a football game. Defining religion about or for someone else is merely more propaganda, and when I think of this I begin looking at groups and Satanism completely differently, not hung up on lights and darks but seeing the terminology as indicators of some other, more systemic dynamic regarding human invasion, language usage and domination in Western religion. |Assuming that there's a cosmic side of good and light, you'd be a |numbskull to worship the dark. In the simplistic picture you paint how could we really disagree, unless it is not quite that simple? ;> |accepting the duality would place honor and moral fiber on the side of the |xian god, would it not? Now we begin the instruction. May we come to see the limitations of our assumptions and how they are insufficient to justify our wild claims. |Satan, according to the duality is the father of deceit and dishonor. Now this is your duality, please recognize. You may claim to disbelieve it, but your mind is not completely free of it. This is part of the problem with habitual mindstates and involvement in groups. It leads to patterns of thought and behavior which are both illogical and self- betraying. |But this is silliness squared - there is no Satan. There is no YHWH. |Except in the mind. Nature, on the other hand... So you evaluate based upon your small experience and knowledge the entirety of the polytheistic world, judging the contents of the common mind and the esoteric truths rendered two-dimensional by ossified debate. "No, there is no Satan." "No, there is no YHWH." even if they may be different somethings than your precious reality. This type of denial is a major weapon of the fervently religious. Beware. As I know it the best religious ideologies contain fragments of wisdom which may be valuably organized into a coherent whole by those explorers who choose the Path Amongst the eXtremes (PAX). Your evaluation does little when I obliterate your gods in a materialist frenzy of analysis and demand that all of it is a figment you devise for your amusement and social powermongering. Better I say to let each have their own ideations, not require that such matters of religion and philosophy be resolved in some Grand Manner, and cease defining a religion by a particular name it may call itself rather than what it generally is known to include (compare this to the old adage regarding judging books by their covers, advice which religious shoppers seldom take). |>|Cairns; who laughs with scorn at the wheezing Xian devil and his wimpy |>|little demons. I agree SHe's starting to wheeze. I agree that Hir demons are at the mercy of a powerful human force arrayed against Hir, and that SHe does appear to be the future victim of a human race without humanity. |and who is still laughing. Laugh all you want at the nature of my quest. I only hope to show you my heart as I defend the wildness everywhere. tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com nocTifer -- Ensure my response - CC public replies to email http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html (emailed replies may be posted) check: http://www.paranoia.com/coe/