Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.satanism,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.all-worlds,alt.religion,talk.religion.newage,talk.religion.misc,alt.consumers,alt.individualism,talk.euthanasia,talk.environment,sci.bio.environment,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Honoring the Earth, Satanism and Paganism (was Satanist/NeoPagan War) Date: 17 Jun 1996 09:26:10 -0700 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 272 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4q40v2$djj@jobe.shell.portal.com> References: <4pkpee$dqu@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> <4pks9k$o@news.internetmci.com> <4pn3ok$rv4@news.internetmci.com> <4pv4mt$1eg@jobe.shell.portal.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.pagan:162847 alt.satanism:45380 alt.magick.tyagi:8631 alt.religion.all-worlds:7941 alt.religion:2373 talk.religion.newage:52807 talk.religion.misc:224801 alt.consumers:358 alt.individualism:42681 talk.euthanasia:3526 talk.environment:64165 sci.skeptic:173674 (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH) [WARNING: IF YOU EMAIL ME A RESPONSE, I MAY REPLY IN PUBLIC, LIKE THIS!!] kaliyuga 49960616 Aeon of the Adversary 1 NULatix (a magical day for a dear friend) |Greetings again, O Thoughtful One. :* |I found myself (how nice for me) rather bored at work one day and decided to |wade into the usually-repetative threads of Satanism and Neopaganism. Just |had to, since I listed authors and your name was sprinkled all over the |place, as they say, like white on rice. hmm, didn't know that particular turn of phrase until your mention :> (white on rice) and I decided to turn this into an esoterrorist ecology message instead of just mailing it back to you. :D |I noticed one particular snippet that |caught my eye, and I was wondering if you'd have the time to clarify for me. what you ask me below was something which brought to clarity a lot of connections regarding what I'd been arguing about Satanism and religion previously. thank you. you are always one to ask me beautiful things. |>no, you are defining Satanism. unless you've changed which religion is |>your own or you somehow see that Neopaganism is INTERNAL to Satanism |>(which I contend, though I don't expect you'll agree), then you may wish |>to rethink this. |You seem to be saying that Neopaganism is an offspring of Satanism. not so much as a sort of wake to the Christian debacle (failure). |I'm not sure I find the logic in that. I'm not sure I do either, frankly. I think it is useful to contend (I like to contend all manner of things, even many of which I think are totally unsubstantive -- sometimes people call me on it and I learn alot more!) things and see what happens, though, and sometimes wonderful questions yield wild explanations. |The superset (Satanism) does not contain all the elements of the subset |(Neopaganism). well, that depends on how you were to view it. if you saw Satanism as something which has been around a long long time (as described by LaVey or myself) and that this did not necessarily include the Dark Gods only (as there's been so much Xtian "light" about), then it is possible to see the recent spate of modern religions as a progression of retaking territory by the Satanists, creeping through what could be accepted within the fragmented society remaining and fabricated thereafter into a replica of former anarchic individualistic ecoclecticism (Satanism; for which I am now utilizing esoterrorism). |I say that mostly because I haven't yet heard Neopaganism satisfactorily |defined. if the above is Satanism then I'd say that Neopaganism is a sort of weak shade of the first with stronger and stronger modern components until it regains its former glory. of course this depends largely upon the notion of whether it is in COMPETITION with what comes to be 'the establishment', much as how variant-'Hinduism' may be in competition with the establishment Indian practices (Vedanta, Yogic paths, etc.). |In the past, you've stated (re-stated, categorized, listed, bulleted, folded, |spindled, and mutilated) a case for Wicca being a subset of Satanism. I can |follow this logic; in the main, Wicca does seem a more codified and |structured version of Satanism. Satanism with curtains, one might say. I |myself prefer to think of them as divergent evolutionary paths rather than |part-and-parcel, but whatever energizes your bunny. actually the FORMs of Wicca and Satanism (I don't care what the structure of the latter is in any case) are of little import to me as I don't really think they are as much religiously related as POLITICALLY. the pattern appears to be (Wiccan? :>) > (Witch) > Wiccan > (Satanist) > Witch > Satanist (in which parens indicate self-ID and those not in parens indicate an overt social ID). the leading edge of impact is at Satanism and the Shadow of Xtianity (which is being manipulated by Satanists through manifested religion as a social psychoanalysis) may be best represented by the twin prongs 'Heretic' and 'Traitor', or in comparison to some cults, 'Disbeliever'. I can imagine the alternatives like 'God-Killer' or even 'Christ-Raper', for example. (I'm sure these are new musical bandnames). yet these become too controversial to return easily to the social consciousness except within the limited forums available (as artistic groups or, especially in the case of the former) scientific or magical groups (something which is popular among Satanism right now. this is not especially unusual given the obvious stereotypical duralism of the world-transcending ascetic and the hedonistic euphoric. (cf. Siva). |Still, making the jump from Wicca-as-Satanism to Neopaganism-as-Satanism is |quite a long one, it merely requires an (unsupportable? :>) expansion of the conception of Satanism such that it becomes 'Naturism', in which we play the part of God(s) and battle a Great Cthonic Wurm-Goddess called Gaea (who not only includes us but also our kindred). 'Neopaganism' becomes then a very important transition from ceremonial magical category to EARTH-centered (my Wicca is this way, even in myth) rather than, say, human-centered (which is the way most of us tend to operate anyway though some of us deny it) or life-centered (and this is where human rights may banch beyond to arboreal rights (for which lorax and all the tree-kin shall witness), etc. if we identify 'earth' with soil only, then we shall have soil only. 'Satan' is a BENEFICIAL adversary. SHe strenthens us, whittles out the soft mettle in us, and SHe can be killed, as can we, even though we may deny this. we are presently, especially with the Christian establishment tending to support procreation and escape from the earth-plane in both religious and magical social strata, headed for a disaster unless something in us or Hir changes. SHe is not only our air and our water, but she is the earth from which that fire we play with and those metals we are moving around come. yes, if perhaps we could make an umbilical, move as a whole to a 'place' which wasn't desolate or a living hell (except to the very wealthy). and undoubtedly people will set out to do just that. my Satanism opposes this. it asserts a radical terrorist dogma which will stop at nothing to infiltrate the enemy and love them in the best way I know how (be that the way of the Cross or the Sword -- in present circumstances, Keys, the modern techological equivalent which are said to be more powerful than swords (and as a magical and mystical symbol Keys are usually the power-emblem of the rulership, of the military and esoteric intelligencia). are we going to find enough chemicals in that jungle to keep us from releasing every known illness before we build it down and stomp it out, pave it over and look at the dwindling parcels remaining with quiet awe, eventually having to shoot the people because they don't care if they live or die, they just want to get away from the horrible city? well, what I was saying about Satanism applied to radical eco-feminism and earth-centered politics (this might include adversarialism to its component parts which are committing the attrocity). SAVE THE PLANET, KILL YOUR SELF and in THIS light I think it is pretty easy to see how the progression in the West might be described as something like this: CHRISTIANITY AND OTHER ANTI-EARTH CULTS WICCA AND MASONIC FRAMEWORKS (SOCIAL POWER CONNECTIONS) (NEO)PAGANISM AND SHAMANIC POLYTHEISMS (NETWORKED MEDICINE) SATANISM AND OTHER ECOCLECTIC SYNCHRETISTS (TERRACENTRISTS) (which the Church of Euthanasia gloriously Crowns) in which each of the successive manifestations (I maintain that these have recent derivations in each case) are of greater consciousness of activism and ecology on the whole (in mysticism and in ecological concerns, both imperative to species and self). Masons and Christian mystics set the second (WICCA) into motion, while shamanics and eco-conscious feminists increased the ranks of the third. Satanism is a battle of martyrdom in the practice of sincere religion, sometimes at the expense of oneself yet in service to that very self. it is this last quality which makes the pact so important as a symbol of Satanic magical endeavor, and it may involve individuals doing some very unusual things. |and I'd be interested hearing (reading?) your thoughts on the matter. are these sufficient? |>|...Most Pagans seem to think thier animal is a bear or a hawk or wolf. |>my power animal is a slug. |I just adore you. What a good animal that is, too. Relentless, steady, not |generally harmful though if it's around you might want to watch your step, |makes most people squirm, no one wants to pick it up really, and look at all |the pretty trails it leaves behind. ;> 4 coe (1CMD) slugs and snails wetly and silently she dwells in an erotic paradise slowly she moves across the drying soil slithering in the valleys in the woods where the moisure collects the place of Yin Gaea || \ \ () () |Nova |"I'm sorta my own power animal." - Me I'll say. I'm sure you be all many'd ever need. ;> tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com nagasiva -------- I found this quote recently and thought you might enjoy it, kin. posted by tmolina1@ic3.ithaca.edu in alt.fan.dragons (slightly edited): ^;^ I believe that imagination is stronger than knowledge, that myth is more potent than history, I belive that dreams are more powerful than facts. I believe that hope will always triumph over experience, that laughter is the only cure for grief and I believe that love is stronger than death. R. Fulgrum ---------- .,4,. ..,_____,.. .,==============================,. .___________.~// /// \\\ \\~._________. ~^---------------------------------------------------------^~ | | | THE CHURCH OF EUTHANASIA | | | |_______________________________________________________| |_________________________________________________________| |______|===|______|===================|______|===|______| ||||||\ +- ||||||\ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+|||||| +-+ |||||| ||||||\\ + ||||||\\ +-+-_________-+-+-||||||\ - |||||| ||||||\\\. ||||||\\\ +-+| | | -+-+||||||\\ . |||||| ||||||\\\\ ||||||\\\\ +-| @|@ | +-+-||||||\\\ |||||| ||||||\\\\\||||||\\\\\ +| | | -+-+||||||\\\\ |||||| |~~~~~~|\\\|~~~~~~|\\\\\ |___|___| +-+|~~~~~~|\\\|~~~~~~| |~SUICIDE~~~~ABORTION~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~CANNIBALISM~~SODOMY~| |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ THANK YOU FOR NOT BREEDING ~~~~~~~~~~~~~| ________________________________________________________________________ Kali Temple of the Church of Euthanasia boboroshi, stew-ard http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/coe.html [as yet not created :> ;just conceived - tn] Mother Church: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Church of Euthanasia (coe@netcom.com) ftp: ftp.etext.org /pub/Zines/Snuffit gopher: gopher.etext.org Zines/Snuffit www: http://www.paranoia.com/coe/ To receive the printed version of _Snuff It_, send $2 to: C.O.E., Box 261, Somerville, MA 02143 SAVE THE PLANET! KILL YOUR *SELF*!