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From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer)
Newsgroups: alt.satanism,alt.magick.tyagi
Subject: TJatsang: Wannabe Satanists (was Re: Church of satan suks.)
Date: 21 Jul 1996 03:02:58 -0700
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kaliyuga
49960721 AA1

jk1604@hdc.hha.dk (Hr. Vad) posts:

|alt.satanism:  TO WANNABE SATANISTS from a Generational

the notation 'wannabe Satanist' is usually applicable to the user.
'Generational' is just another 'Good Guy Badge'.

[quoting TJatsang:]

|What you Tossers and [DV] and others WANT is Satanism that's
|NOT-Satanism.  

from the post-going we can tell what TJ wants Satanism to be....


|...xtoid "respectable" shit, 

apparently she wants it to be like her text: disrespectable.
though upon a second glance through her text I notice that she doesn't
really mean 'respectable' here except in a very odd manner.  what she
really means is 'conforming' and 'proper'.


|...be able to go to work and STOICALLY say "I'm a Satanist" and all 
|is hunky dorey like in xtoidville.  

at first I thought TJ wanted *not* to be able to go to work and say this, 
but I think it is the 'STOICALLY' emphasis here which is (finally) well-
placed.


|...be ACCEPTED (or loved) BY ...SOCIETY.

again a notion of 'fitting in', conforming.


|...They see a pentacle and they ask you what it is?  ....  The ONLY 
|types that would ask are the ones who KNOW what it is and want to 
|start a conflict.

I've had others ask who thought it was a Star of David.
I don't typically wear such symbols, though the point is well-taken.


|Traditionally, FOREVER traditionally, we have been nameless, faceless
|people, HARD to find, HARD to pin down, ever-moving and ALWAYS a smidgen
|under the law out of NECESSITY.... Because ...YOUR society... HAS HATED 
|OUR GUTS forever.  Smoke and mirrors and snake oil

TJ appears to want to be the victim.  those who bore the brunt of all
the oppression and have slinked on the fringes of culture and the legal
system.  I will agree with her here, and think it has to do with those
who drag culture kicking and screaming into regions for which they don't
think they are ready and would instead waddle in inertia.  


|...We never EVER were beggars, peasants OR FARMERS.  We HAD to live like 
|criminals because of YOUR SOCIETY, YOUR RACE, YOUR PEOPLE....  

it appears that TJ wants to identify a continuous historical movement,
but isn't being very clear about who it might entail aside from her and
any organizations she may be part of.  I am inclined to agree that such 
individuals existed, because the Satanist is de facto outside of the 
mainstream, on the edges of culture.  I suspect this is why Jesus is 
depicted as consorting with thieves and murderers.


|...WE WALK on you, RISE in your societies, SMILE in your faces, CHANGE 
|our names to "blend in" and HATE YOUR GUTS BACK: YOU gajyo, pretarupa, GOY!  

this does remind me of 'being accepted' through change of appearance.


|...they'd say LaVey MADE HIMSELF look more devilish by shaving his head?  
|OH CONTRARE!  He looked MORESO with the hair, ESPECIALLY as a kid.  

a stereotype for Satanic Priest is bald.  I found it in Wheatley, and
I'm sure there are other common texts.  a rounded pate like Aquino, 
especially with a widow's peak if hairy, is also likely stereotypically
associated with Satanism.  you may not think this is 'Satanic', but I'm
talking about the popular stereotypes here.


|...We are the FIRST "niggers" you hated.  But your kind couldn't do a 
|THING to us.  Not in Euro-hell xtoidville and not here.

TJ appears to identify anti-Christianity (anti-Xtoidism) with Satanism,
but perhaps this is context-based.


|..."technology unknown at the time." UNKNOWN? STUPID FOOLS, obviously it 
|WAS KNOWN:  the fucking thing was BUILT duh get a clue.  So the Guild 
|Masons would say "A demon told them how to make it."  And WHO BELIEVED 
|THIS?  YOU ALL did (yeah, YOU who still buy grimoires and believe in 
|divine revelations from godlings).  IMBECILES!  SUCKERS!  So we SOLD YOU 
|grimoires DUH get a clue.  MONEY MONEY MONEY.  Rather you WANT to believe 
|demons told us than face the fact that someone is SMARTER than you by 
|about 100 IQ points.  

I'm unsure to what this refers, but deception does not necessarily imply
intelligence unless it can be sustained long-term.


|...Ramanajan's GENIUS.  Yeah:  GENIUS, like GENIE? DJINN?  Old name of 
|OUR RACE. CHAN, HSIEN, ETC....

TJ would like to associate directly with beings of power, djinn, the
Hermetic genius, the superintelligent.  this appears to be how she 
defines who Satanists are.


|...WAY BACK when I used to TALK like this, I told a person giving ME a 
|hard problem to solve, that a demon told me how to do it.  And, in this 
|20th century, this FOOL BELIEVED me.  ...I SOLVED his math problem 
|CORRECTLY.  It NEVER would occur to the moron that I did it the way 
|ANYONE ELSE would do it that COULD do it.  Naww, that would require this 
|man to REALIZE that HE IS STUPID, in his own judgement, TOO STUPID to 
|solve it on his own. Judgement time: he's of no WORTH, morally bankrupt 
|ala the MORAL obligation to be smart, even if you ARE NOT smart, by 
|all means, PRETEND.  

TJ appears to value socially-demonstrated intelligence (a type of 
exhibition of conformity and assimilation) through the example of 
providing responses as per any decent computer.  TJ appears to think
that pretense of intelligence is of benefit to herself to 'save face'
and/or win persuasion points, yet there is more to her rant than this.


|He'd RATHER believe a demon told me:  it's safer for his EGO and 
|illusions of intelligence to BELIEVE this.  By all means, he HAS to 
|keep his fortress of LIES intact, brick by lying brick.  Demons talking 
|to me do not threaten his FORTRESS of self deception.  But someone with 
|NO training in this kind of math but who can DO WHAT HE CAN NOT DO would 
|SMASH his fortress of self-deception to pieces.  So demons it is.  LOTS 
|of our people talk like that and DID talk like that to YOU PEOPLE.  YOU!  

an interesting us/them dichotomy wherein TJ assumes the 'more intelligent'
position, the 'upper hand', the 'con-game worker', etc. roles.  is this
not just as much a self-deception?  why not just tell the asshole that 
he is a fool and be done with him?  (perhaps because he has power as part
of a larger herd?)


|...along comes Temple of Shit Mouth going on about ENOCHIAN ....  it has 
|NOTHING TO DO with Egyptian.  OR Coptic.  OR ANY OTHER Afro-Asiatic
|language save that Enochian is a COMBO lingo of THREE languages.  Do you
|all really believe a real philologist looked at it?  I can recognize SOME
|of the words in there, translated one whole sentence even.  It was
|NOTHING talk, snake-oil smoke and mirrors that worked on the TOP western
|people of the day and still works on the same RACE OF COWS.  ENOCHIAN
|physics is for YOU.  PHYSICS is for us.

unless it wasn't designed to swindle (I don't know the wheres or whys,
personally, not being all that interested in it).  unless it was designed
as a sub-conscious language-fusion.


|...YOU WANNABE SATANISTS find it "the thing to do" to TAKE OUR REAL
|NAMES or some NON-XIANish (goyische) name.  So far over 5 neo-Satanists
|asked me if Nadramia was Peggy's real name!  OH?  WHY WOULDN'T IT BE?  NO
|ONE asked me if Gilmore was Peter's real name!  SEE WHAT I MEAN?  SURE
|you do!  Stop pretending YOU DON'T!  It's TIRED.

is this a type of age-ism?  does it point out real differences in 
intelligence, or merely variations in social absorption?  I agree that
this kind of question does exemplify some sort of massive difference
in consciousness regarding a particular subject ('real names' and a
measure of importance in regards changing names and identifications).

I'm not sure, however, what it says about those who have not yet become
aware of these things.  does it say they are 'wannabe Satanists'?  or
does it say they are Satanists who are immature?  is Satanism *=* to
maturity?  that would allow us to constantly condemn the immature and
call them wannabes while on our own never owning up to our immaturity.


|...Lovecraft, a learned man, knew who we were and wrote of us and 
|others using it to turn a tale of fiction (the last part of the tale 
|gets weird): Horror At Red Hook.  

I'll look it up.


|Panaggio is his real name (he legally changed it, went to court, all of
|that).  Sounds Italian.  SO DOES Carnacki right?  KARA NAKI means Black
|Serpent; it's NOT Italian.  Pan (Pan) Aggio (All Holy).  NOT Italian....

so what I get from this portion of the rant is *those who are taking 
control of themselves, shaping their destinies, are shrewd and not taken
for schmucks* are the Satanists.  TJ appears to want to suppose that
there are certain divisions amongst people such that *intelligence*, and
perhaps shrewdness and/or consciousness is a factor in determining who
are the 'real' and who are the 'wannabe' Satanists.  perhaps she is right.


|who inherited this patent is trying to find out what her own mother's
|maiden name is:  talk about secretive?  Talk about DIFFERENT CUSTOMS?
|DIFFERENT PRIORITIES?

|What is your name?  What you tell me it is.  Do YOU CHANGE if you tell me
|your name is Betty Boop?  NO.  You are still YOU.  As long as you ANSWER
|TO the name, so what?  Such things are NO MATTER to us: but are a MAJOR
|DEAL to you patriarchal SHIT HEADS all so PARANOID about who fathered
|your kid and all that FAMILY CRAP and now BIG GOVERNMENTS obsessed with
|RECORDS:  hey, at least the fundie Christians are smart enough to be
|PARANOID about such things.  

is this a humungous paradigm-divide?  perhaps TJ is onto something.  there
does appear to be a consciousness-difference between these two cultures,
not really geographically-based.  is it determined by parenting and
lineage, such that there may be certain ways of training clear-thought
and consciousness-revolution-making within oneself?  perhaps so.

perhaps it is a measure of *CRITICAL THOUGHT*.  there does appear to be
a consistent lack of this within the element which TJ is critiquing.


|...TO YOUR KIND it matters, rules, regulations, lines in dirt and all 
|that BULLSHIT.  Control bullshit.  Having TERRITORY is one thing, it's 
|instinct.  But territories CHANGE with the winds of change just as 
|clouds CHANGE.  Your kind NEVER understood this, you have NO FEEL for it.

|And you want to KNOW what Satanists are like?  I'm TELLING you!  This is
|what we were, ARE, and always WILL BE as long as we are here.  You EXPECT
|LaVey to remember details, names, dates?  SHIT.  I can't remember the
|date my mother died!  1985?  1983?  Month?  Day?  UNimportant to the kind
|of animal I am.  Gone is gone:  WHO CARES what day?  She LIVED her life
|fully and richly. WHO CARES what date she died?

I am beginning to see TJ's point.  she is describing a kind of approach
to life, a COGNIZANCE and EXPERIENCE of the richness of life and the
values which make that experience a full one.  too often people live in
a vicarious manner, trying to portray themselves rather than being.

in this way TJ's Satanism reminds me greatly of the Saivites of whom I
wrote recently -- their counter-movement to the establishment a means of
approaching REAL EXPERIENCE, rather than merely conforming, providing the
appearance, becoming sham humans with records of greatness.
 

|We who perform HARDLY EVER take pictures of it.  ....  NO PHOTOS EXIST:  
|at least, WE don't have any.  What for?  We even have a WAY ABOUT THIS 
|that says DO NOT do it....  

this is something I have often maintained myself, though I seldom very
expertly associated it with Satanism as TJ is doing here.  I have come
to say to people: "Do not take my picture.  I don't want you stealing
my soul" in a very direct and ordering way.  VICARIOUS LIVING is what
it inspires.  

not only this, a split of the subject-object out of true experiencing.
that is, we come to see ourselves through another's eyes, as if this 
is somehow important to us.  TJ's point here is right on the money.


|...(Ask Diane Panaggio's daughter who doesn't even know the maiden 
|name of her mother: which I'm sure is UNHEARD OF among YOUR KIND).

yes, a different emphasis, upon role rather than reality, on memory and
appearance rather than feeling and sincerety.


|You want some kind of above board new fangled RESPECTABLE Satanism and GO
|BACK TO CHURCH will you?  [DV] wants to "figure out" what to call
|herself, some new fangled title as if the title will finally DEFINE her.
|I'll define her:  she's a real brain with science but is repression on
|two feet otherwise.  

despite the fact that I tend to like [DV] I'm inclined to agree
very strongly with this assessment of her constant self-absorption about
'what to call herself'.  this appears within the ToS also ("Are we going
to call ourselves Satanists or not?").  it is a kind of anxiety which
appears to betray the motivation for the action -- other-centered 
conformism).


|...We are the FIRST niggers.  That's how that goes.  Guess WHAT is 
|coming to dinner:  the fortune teller with the turban.  Oh oh, danger, 
|devils and demons.  Safer to BRING a black guy home: then it's "Guess 
|WHO is coming to dinner."  Your kind weren't AFRAID of blacks back then.

TJ maintains the focus upon the critical faculty here.  I wonder if this
is a 'your kind' in any sort of lasting way (i.e. not genetic, but in 
some respects cultural and parental) or if it can be 'cured'. :>


|...You are BLAND, BORING, WASPY, BANAL, NOTHING PEOPLE.  You haven't 
|got a creative or mystique-like or INTERESTING BONE in your dead, rigid 
|little bodies.  NO ONE wants to know you so you wannabe Satanists and 
|OOO AAH the herd.  But you AREN'T Satanists.  You are boring nothing 
|little cretins....

I get from this that the Satanist motivation comes out of that 'genius'
she mentioned before.  originality, genuineness, not focussed on how to
impress so much as how to manifest what we desire.  this is a very 
useful delineation, though I'm unsure that it can be used in any sort
of blanket manner.  


|...The worst of you put on that PATHETIC more-than-stoic "iron hard" 
|persona and we see thru this as DEFENSIVE posturing.  TRULY strong people 
|WE ARE, and we are FLOWINGLY LOOSE outwardly, QUICK to laugh at life AND 
|AT OURSELVES, fast with a smile.  Take almost NOTHING seriously, either.  
|Our strength is INSIDE and does NOT SHOW on the outside at all.  That's 
|one of the reasons you NEVER can "find" us....  Looking in the wrong 
|places all the time you find MORE XTOIDS:  yourselves.

this generalization 'Xtoids' is wearing, though perhaps it is an 
intentional targetted swathe.  that is, perhaps 'Xtoid' means the
herd-Xtian in a way that 'wannabe Satanist' indicates the herd-Satanist.


|traveling minister revival type show with miracles of cripples getting up
|to walk and all. GREAT SHOW, actually.  Lots of fun.  Yup.  That's us!
|UNDER YOUR NOSES.  Far from open and above board.  You haven't got a CLUE
|about generational Satanists, NOT A CLUE.  You aren't LIKE us.  You are
|TOO HUNG UP, too UNROOTED and concerned with WORRY CARE about your
|"stupid images."  We just MAKE UP an image IF we want one FOR THE
|OCCASION.  We are always ROOTED in who we really are.  You don't get it.
|YOUR NAME doesn't make you who you are.  Call [DV] "[DV]."
|SO WHAT?  She's still SHE, isn't she?  

I find this criticism and line of commentary very meaningful (despite
all the EXPLOSIVE rhetoric).  the point is well-made.  worrying about
identifications has never been my intent in taking them on.  as TJ
here says, my own Satanism has always been rooted in who I am.


|It is only since dealing with the PUBLIC OCCULT that I NO LONGER talk our
|own lingo jargon (demons told me, etc) and say "I calculated it" instead.

too bad.  that lingo jargon is very beautiful.


|Or tell you my name with no bullshit.  But my reasons have NOTHING TO DO
|with, say, someone else's tripe about "being  honest."  It had to do
|with having to GIVE COS people (two of them) stuff and well, having to
|SHOW them at least where it's coming from for real and who I am for real.

I've found that living in such a deceptive world can be problematic.
what if you believed the things you said?


|I.e, the musician has to at least sit down and PLAY SOMETHING to show
|ANOTHER musician that he IS INDEED, a musician!   NONE of the so-called
|occult pedigrees you all KNOW to claim (as bullshit) mean a whit to us:
|and you don't KNOW ANY of our real families at all.  You don't recognise,
|for instance, what it means when a person gives their kid a "middle" name
|like "Stanton." You have NO CLUES AT ALL about it.  It means NOTHING to
|you.  That's because you know NOTHING OF US.  ALL you know are the FRAUDS
|our kind pulled off ON YOU:  like Dee and Kelly.  OR you know purveyers
|of bullshit: Churchward, Blavatsky, Grant.  Or you know the cast outs,
|Crowley and Weishaupt and some others I see you never even heard of.

this strikes me as inspired, but I have absolutely no idea what the
alternative to the frauds (which I tend to agree they were) might be.
'Stanton'?  so far I'm reminded of gypsies, of nomads and con-artists
who live in anarchic wandering wolf-packs feeding off the gullibility
of a populace without critical thought and swift communications.  this
latter is disappearing slowly.


|....  All you can do is try to be PROPER Satanists (xians)
|and/or rail against xianity (focus still on "the xian" you have INSIDE
|you), or dream up same old HARD CORE FUNDIE xian shit and dress is up
|with exotic sounding "dark" words which fool more of YOUR OWN KIND, or
|"put on" that STOIC HARD persona and act the role of RIGID Satanist and
|imagine you are BIG AND BAD - but PROPER.  But NOT ONE THING Satanic.

again the focus on conformity, propriety.  I see that this is indeed
in line with Nietzsche in regards its antagonism to puritanism.


|There is 1000 times MORE REAL Satanism in seeing LaVey, like an innocent
|kid STILL that same kid, talking about Johnson-Smith company.  And I have
|TOYS STILL from them:  DEVIL HEADS ON THEM MOLDED INTO THE PLASTIC.
|Magno was the Devil's name when their toys were sold in our neighborhood
|stores in the 1950's.  But LaVey never claimed the store was Satanic run
|(tho he COULD have!)  Johnson.  Smith.  Together, two RECOGNIZABLE
|Satanic words.  Johnson's are sons of the Smiths.  NOT THE NAMES.  What
|they ARE.  But YOU don't recognize these WORDS (not names).  That's my
|point.  Not a creative OR PLAYFUL or luck of the draw bone in your rigid
|XIAN selves. NO Ridero Ergo Sum.

something this reminds me of also is WORLDLINESS.  this is something
which I am not, really, though I have some connections through the
intelligentsia and exploration of weird cultures.  things like the
name 'johnson' could be either 'son of a john' (i.e. bastard child
of a prostitute) or 'prick' (I've heard 'johnson' used in this way).
as for 'smith' this also appears to imply bastard (no surname), but
in both cases I could be mistaken.

isn't it weird how those who focus so strongly on CREATIONISM may
well not be creative in the slightest?  TJ's words are quite intriguing.


[lots of personal stuff about people I don't know omitted]

this is the first of TJ's texts which I have found profoundly meaningful.
I hope I find others of its ilk (the continuation or no).  it reminds me
of gypsies, con-artists, secret cults, and people who think they've taken
me for a 'rube' (in fact they relieved me of things I was quite happy to
see gone ;>).

nocTifer