Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) Newsgroups: alt.religion.wicca,alt.pagan.magick,alt.pagan,alt.satanism,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage,alt.christnet Subject: Satan as a Tool/Weapon/Shadow (was Tools of Satan) Date: 21 Aug 1996 18:00:04 -0700 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 218 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4vgbek$mu9@jobe.shell.portal.com> References: <4v7tme$nd1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <32188887.2263@netins.net> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.religion.wicca:36915 alt.pagan.magick:1376 alt.pagan:170462 alt.satanism:49935 talk.religion.misc:236321 talk.religion.newage:56359 alt.christnet:134282 kaliyuga 49960821 AA1 Hail to the Watchtowers of our Mighty Fortress of Warfare! Wizard: #> 4) Satan is part of Christianity. true, in part. Satan appears to have moved slightly beyond the Christian Pupae. #> It seems that the fundamentalists spend half their time talking about #> Old Scratch. sure, but let's forget about them and concentrate on ourselves for awhile. #> Since Wicca is NOT Christianity, Wiccans just don't think or #> worry about Satan. I hadn't noticed this. I see that Wiccans seem hell-bent (pun points!) on separating themselves from this "non-existent god" ("Get away! We don't believe in you!"), rather than laughing ("Hee-hee! What a funny Dragon that Satan-daemon! Let's go play and see if SHe'll play too!" ;>). Xina : # *This* is the misinformation that Ive been talking about. Why do we # accept Christianity's definition of Satan and Satanism? lots of Wiccans accept it whole HOG. the 'establishment' is the authority on spirituality and other people's gods, after all. # Do we accept their definition of what we are? I don't. now it gets fun.... # Christianity/Judaeism did *not* invent Satan to make we of the folk # religions look bad. hmm. # The whole thing just boils down to a bunch of political and # religious semantics that we as Pagans/Wiccans/Satanists are # caught in. I see. how about ..... [quoting from my Book of Shadows] % More radical than their predecessors, these dissidents % [that is, early Christians] began increasingly to % invoke the *satan* to characterize their Jewish % opponents; in the process they turned this rather % unpleasant angel into a far grander -- and far more % malevolent -- figure. No longer one of God's faithful % servants, he begins to become what he is for Mark and % for later Christianity -- God's antagonist, his enemy, % even his rival. Such sectarians, contending less against % "the nations" [Gentiles, non-Jews] than against other Jews, % denounce their opponents as apostate and accuse them of % having been seduced by the power of evil, whom they call by % many names -- Satan, Beelzebub, Semihazah, Azazel, Belial, % Prince of Darkness. These dissidents also borrowed % stories, and wrote their own, telling how such angelic % powers, swollen with lust or arrogance, fell from % heaven into sin. Those who first elaborated such % stories... most often used them to characterize what % they charged was the "fall into sin" of human beings -- % which usually meant the dominant majority of their % Jewish contemporaries.... % ...this greatest and most dangerous enemy did not % originate, as one might expect, as an outsider, an % alien, or a stranger. Satan is not the distant enemy % but the intimate enemy -- one's trusted colleague, % close associate, brother. He is the kind of person % on whose loyalty and goodwill the well-being of the % family and society depend -- but one who turns % unexpectedly jealous and hostile. Whichever version % of his origin one chooses, then, and there are many, % all depict Satan as an *intimate* enemy -- the % attribute that qualifies him so well to express % conflict among Jewish groups. Those who asked, % "How could God's own angel become his enemy?" were % thus asking, in effect, "How could one of *us* % become one of *them*?" Stories of Satan proliferated % in those troubled times, especially within those % radical groups that had turned against the rest of % of the Jewish community and, consequently, concluded % that others had turned against them -- or (as they % put it) against *God*.... sounds right so far, doesn't it? early Christians struggling against the other Jews, but WAIT! there's more.... % Between 70 and 100 C.E. -- the interval between the % writing of the gospel of Mark and the gospel of John -- % the Christian movement became largely Gentile. Many % converts found that having become Christians placed % their lives in danger, and that they were threatened % not by Jews but by pagans -- Roman officers and city % mobs who hated Christians for their "atheism," which % pagans feared could bring the wrath of the gods upon % whole communities. Only two generations after Mark % and Matthew, Gentile converts, many of them former % pagans from Roman provinces -- Asia Minor, Syria, % Egypt, Africa, and Greece -- adapted the gospel % vocabulary to face a new enemy. As earlier generations % of Christians had claimed to see Satan among their % fellow Jews, now converts facting Roman persecution % claimed to see Satan and his demonic allies at work % among *other Gentiles*. _The Origin of Satan_, by Elaine Pagels, pp. 47-8, 112. _______________________________________________________ imagine that?! changing history, changing Satans. hmm. # We dont shun developing ourselves, of course we do, everone does. it is painful. # nor do we shun the Dark aspects of Nature... of course we do, that is what makes them *DARK*. # that is what I have found the majority of modernday Satanists are # about, both european Pagan variety and their Americanized counterparts. are the Americanized counterparts 'Pagan' too? woowee, this could be very complex. what if it is all a 3-card Monty? # ...everyone who is in this NG should read the alt.satanism FAQ to # insure that they are not the unwitting dupes of the Christian # church and spreading its propaganda and definitions of what we # are, of what *they* are... whoa! definitions! disempower yourselves fast now! while I support the review of an alt.satanism FAQ, I would point out that there are now several of them from which to choose. here, let me point them out to you: There is a Lupo-Cabal Version http://www.ion.com.au/~dave/f4.html There is a telluric tokus Version http://www.hollyfeld.org/pub/Esoteric/Usenet/FAQs/FAQ.tokustn.9608 and There is a Sizzling Setian Version http://www.hollyfeld.org/pub/Esoteric/Usenet/FAQs/FAQ.tmplset.9411 have at it! I hope there'll be alot more of these 'FAQs'. perhaps we'll put all this damned 'certainty' and 'knowledge' and 'definitions' to rest and for good! let us demonstrate our solidarity around the fulcrum of DIVERSITY! # ...Satanism and devil-worship are not interchangable terms. of COURSE they are interchangeable. just depends on whose tools we're using to make the sWITCH. # They are as different as Dianics or Ecclectic Wiccans from # Traditional Gardnerian or Alexandrian Witches. you go girl! how different are these *really*? next you'll be saying that they're as different as Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, or Nichiren Shoshu and Zen Buddhism! woowee! # The terminology may be the same from time to time, why is this? # but the approach and technical aspects are completely different. please explain what the 'approach and technical aspects' are between: SATANISM and DEVIL-WORSHIP thank you. # We dont have to play with them (Satanists) if we dont want to.... # but at least can we be courteous and not spread lies and rumours # that most Wiccans are not informed enough to define, much less # make judgement calls about. oh no! you might upset countless centuries of tradition! isn't it our JOB to grab hold of the Satan Golem, point Hir in the direction of our Enemies and CAST ASPERSIONS (pun points!)?????? WAIT! WAIT! don't get all INCENSED on me now! (he SCORES!) in service to Satan and dedication to Kali, I greet you in raucous laughter, nocTifer the evil (satanic) bender (witch) tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com -- CC public replies to email - see http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html (emailed replies may be posted) ---- and check: http://www.paranoia.com/coe/ * * * Asphalta Cementia Metallica Polymera Coyote La Cuckaracha Humana * * *