Path: kudonet.com!kudo20!tyagi
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer)
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.fan.kali.astarte.inanna,alt.pagan,alt.satanism,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Satanism/Demonology
Date: 23 Mar 1997 12:31:50 -0800
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[Orig-To: jmartin@ixks.com (Jeremy Martin); perm. received to post here]

49970218 AA1  Hail Satan!  


Jeremy Martin <jmartin@ixks.com>:
#...I'd.. ah, 
#"sincerely" like to "converse" with a God, I find the idea of being 
#dedicated to one very appealing, but I don't know any. Is wishing for one 
#to make contact with me enough, or do I have to research one and 
#concentrate on one specifically.. or what? 

I imagine it differs for each person as to what they need to break open
the communication channels.  there are numerous approaches possible,
inclusive of becoming very familiar with priest(esse)s of particular
gods and engaging worship and/or ritual intending such connection.


#You said read about them and look at pictures and see which one seems 
#appealing.. but then what? 

then begin to fabricate associations of art and action with that deity.
construct intentional tools for the communication, discover what kinds
of offerings or dedications the god might enjoy, whether there are
'messenger deities' whom one might contact first (e.g. Legba for the
various African diaspora deities or Ganesha for many Indian), and if
they typically require a particular kind of initiation prior to the
connection.  

set about obtaining these offerings, initiations, contacts.
make artistic gear to wear, communicate through, and as tools for the
synchronization (it can be seen as matching of consciousness in which
the various tools serve as emmisaries or formalwear).


#So do we define our own Satan, or does Satan appear to us in different 
#forms? 

different people do it differently, from what I can tell.  one method
may work better for you than others.  you may need to accept someone's
particular vision of Satan in order to make the connection.  you may
need to create or discover your own, perhaps a combination of these.


#You've mentioned various books.. is there a way I can commune with 
#Satan without having to order them (as my VERY conservative city and it's 
#six bookstores do not have anything by LaVey or anything else 
#crossreferenced to Satanism) that you could tell me? Or do I have to 
#first define Satan.. or what? 

it is imperative that I am understood on this point: what you 'have to'
do in order succeed in the communication is going to largely depend on
your own background, preferences, and psychospiritual state.  what kinds
of events and disciplines you have previously engaged will influence your
ability not only to hear from the deities, but also to *speak* with them.

thus what you are asking me to do above amounts to a kind of psycho-
spiritual evaluation of your condition, one I am not in the least
prepared to render given the distance and flimsiness of our communication.
it is something you must feel for yourself, taking small steps and watching
for the right signs (*as you interpret them*), moving along trajectories
which will yield increased contact as these become revealed to you.


nocTifer:
#> ...[The Satanic Bible] is a composite which he did not
#> entirely author.  those who don't know this and recommend the book to
#> you should be considered ignorant and therefore dangerous.

#The one "satan girl" I talked to at school wasn't aware of this.. but I 
#think she's just starting to learn, herself. Is it advantageous at all to 
#go about this with a partner? 

it can be, yes.  sometimes it is valuable to explore with another newbie,
sometimes you can trip each other up.  it all depends on how the two of
you compare, psycho-spiritually, what you both need, etc.  compare it to
some other sort of coordinated maneuver, such as dancing or feeding each
other dinner.


#realized how phony and bogus my parents' God was, I thought it was 
#atheism for a while, but now I think thatt the mixture of anarchistic 
#thoughts and atheistic (at least until proven otherwise that gods do 
#exist) beliefs come together to form this Satanism.. which seems VERY 
#appealing, even without any deitys envovled. 

numerous Satanists appear to feel similarly, treating the 'gods' as
subjective fictions which we may use within ritual and little else.
some omit ritual or magick altogether, I'm sure.


#and I figure someone had to learn all this for themsevles before they 
#could write books.. so I guess right now my main question is, how do I go 
#about comuning with Satan or any Gods drawn to me, in general, (assuming 
#they exist).. without having to buy books and use stale prescribed 
#rituals or however you're supposed to do it?

depends entirely on what Satan is to you.  for me the communion required
my becoming very familiar with divinatory devices and other magical tools,
various sequential mythological stories, and psychoactive substances.
after that it was a matter of continuing to follow out my intuition and
effecting the rituals and personal transformations necessary to the 
relationship (all determined on my own in response to who I am and what 
I (typically dis)believe).


#> there is quite a bit online.  check out this URL:
#> 		http://www.hollyfeld.org/satan
#> I will likely be updating this within the coming week or three.
#
#With this extremely cheap computer.. I can run pine just fine, ftp from 
#unix, telnet and see ANSI.. but webbrowsing I can't do unless I go to 
#some more well-off family member's house, and then it wouldn't be in 
#private. So.. I read most of the stuff at your ftp site at 
#esoteric/usenet/sattanism/.. but all of those were posts. Do you have 
#actual faqs somewhere on that site, or know of a good site to go to?

you might also try the following:

	ftp://ftp.hollyfeld.org/pub/Esoteric/Avidyana/Shaitan/

[seems to be taking longer than a week or two to get back up]


#># I don't get who you "worship"

#> if by 'you', you mean me, then I worship Kali.  I have dedicated myself
#> to Her devotion.  if by 'you', you mean Satanists generally, then this
#> appears to vary considerably, many Satanists eshewing worship entirely,
#> especially of Satan.

#So if you're dedicated to Kali's devotion, why are you still a Satanist? 

I'm syncretic.  I acknowledge and pay tribute to and/or worship a variety,
though I have a maintained temple/altar for Kali and have begun a number of
Satanic constructions, inclusive of Qabalistic daemon (qliphotic) sigils
and a batch of Baphometic art on the wall where I live.  art and worship
are sometimes very connected for me.  perhaps this might also be a route 
for you.


#Why aren't you now a.. ah.. Kalist?

the best characterization is probably 'dark neopagan', since I am pretty
syncretic and creative in my approach and don't presume that I am 
somehow reconstructing something ancient.  I have been told that there
are many parallels between what I am doing and what one who is called
a 'Kalidasa' (Hindu Kali devotee) might engage.  this is associated
with "tantra", and I understand from Kali that I am a 'tantric monk'.


#> #.. and if both, who'se more of your spiritual leader.
#> the whole thing about Satanism is that leaders tend to be idiots and
#> unreliable.  I don't have a 'spiritual leader' and there are many
#> Satanists who don't accept one.  those who do should be seriously
#> challenged on the grounds that they may be part of the 'Satanist Herd',
#> in a manner attempting to 'comform to a standard of noncomformity',
#> to some an contradiction in terms, oxymoronic.

#Then who are you more devoted to, Kali or your Satan?

Kali.  I worship Her and identify Her with all of the known cosmos
beyond myself, particularly as manifested within certain forms, such
as trees and dragons.  Satan is Her power, a mute, whom I serve as
a reflection or result of my tantric devotion.


#teacher is doing exactly. So I guess I'd ask of you to be as nonspecific 
#and generic as possible, while letting me (and whoever else reads this) 
#learn how to become a Satanist, make contact with a Deity (if one 
#exists), and make contact with my own personal Satan (if I find to have 
#one)..   

what I would suggest is to contemplate deeply who Satan is to you,
perhaps long into the night before a single lit candle and burning
incense.  imagine if you are able some sort of imagery, if you are
artistically inclined, render this in the medium of your preference,
and then compare and contrast what others might have to say about
who Satan is for them.  before the contact it would probably be
somewhat helpful for you to get 'hints' about the direction you'd
need to stretch out, make available to the energies in question,
and these artistic sessions (rites) and reflections could be quite
helpful in resolving Satan's "URL".

beyond that, there are countless ways to become a Satanist.  I made
a pact (of which I'd send you a copy in email, along with a reflection
on the journey I took to sign it) with Satan and signed it in my own
blood.  it was this that confirmed my Satanism for me (I think I was
in many ways *raised* of Satanic virtues and principles, though we
were never instructed as to any 'religious' or even 'esoteric'
character and merely encouraged to follow out our desires.

if you have difficulties with organizations (of which there are a few,
I understand, though I have not joined many myself, being of similar
mind to you in regards avoiding 'follow-the-leader' instructions),
you might wish to experiment, *imagine* how it 'should' be done,
carry out what what you imagine, reflect on the experience, and then
repeat it until you 'get it right'.  

in many ways the art and science of magick and/or the conversation 
with deities is an intuitive and subtle enterprise which cannot 
easily be passed into formula.  

as I said, I do think that Crowley's _Liber Astarte..._ is a valuable
text here, and it can be had via FTP if you are diligent in your
searches -- if you can't find it let me know and I'll see what I
can do; it is an Appendix to _Book Four_, or 'MiTaP' ('Magick in 
Theory and Practice').

blessed beast!

nocTifer
tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com