Path: kudonet.com!kudo20!tyagi From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan,alt.satanism,talk.religion.misc Subject: Satanists and Neopagans Date: 11 Apr 1997 00:10:05 -0700 Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services Lines: 198 Sender: tyagi@bjt.net Message-ID: Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) NNTP-Posting-Host: kudo20.kudonet.com Xref: kudonet.com alt.magick.tyagi:8935 alt.pagan:164386 alt.satanism:50020 talk.religion.misc:231557 [Orig-To: private email] 49961219 AA1 Hail Satan! I have noticed that Satanists, especially the fresher, tend not to like Christians (perhaps on par with Neopagans generally) on account of their misconceptions of them, often owing to poor experience through upbringing and/or rough brushes. I have an advantage here because my parents rejected Christianity fairly early on in their exposure to religion (which occurred when they were young adults). various elements of my family have been Christian, but the bulk appear to have been so only in name or were not serious about any sort of religion (it is hard to see back beyond a certain point). LaVey said that the reason that what we are discussing is called 'Satanism' is due to the circumstances of the culture in which it arises, the same 'current', if you will, being called different things throughout time and space. I think this may be on par with Neopagan conceptions of 'the Great Goddess', and that it has emotional persuasiveness and some degree of reflection on truth. however, I think the idea that Satanists and Christians have little or nothing to do with one another is at once rather vague and somewhat mistaken. re: Satanists having no interest in Christian religion or activity in general this does appear to be true, excepting those like me who are syncretic, absorbing what we like of the Christian fold, and antagonistic, our values sufficiently adverse to Christian society that we opt to engage politics which will reverse-co-opt and directly oppose what I would call 'the Christian insanity' (often centered on procreation and detrimental to wilderness, my Satan). re: the idea that Satanism doesn't need Christianity. while this does seem true, its character has been markedly impacted by the Christian environs in which it has developed. I'd say that Satanism is (as has been Neopaganism generally until it began to ossify) somewhat reactionary, seeking out societal taboos and difficult religious and political characters into which to flow. I think it is safe to assert that Satanism wouldn't be the same today if Christianity wasn't around to provide a kind of circle within which to create Satanic rite, a clam within which to become pearl. re: the idea that Satanism existed "long before Christianity warped the Left Hand Path into its own demon". here's where the real argument begins in Satanic Sociology/Philosophy in the same way it begins in Neopaganism. if it has different names and is of different flavors, is it "really" Satanism? with what constituted characteristics does a social phenomenon become an 'ism'? a few rebels and artists who contributed to historical 'Satanic' literature/art? I think there are important points from both sides of this subject and the issues aren't usually taken apart in any coherent fashion and examined. many Satanists speak of 'the Left Hand Path' (a phraseology derived from Indian tantrics) as if it is a contiguous, consistent social entity, and yet I'm not aware that it is, aside from scattered rebellious sects which arose and died out or were destroyed by establishment forces. in some ways we're considering the very foundation of the 'extensive Satanic network' of the Satanic Panic scaremongers, but asking after those who do what WE do, are of US, and have OUR values/ethics/philosophies in common beyond the need for violence/wrath. the way (esp. Western) religions develop is to be co-opted by the herd and then re-appear in new guises recurrently. in this sense, what we shall be calling 'Satanism' 10-20 years down the road will not any longer be representative of the current of the movement we are discussing today (as it is not the same as it was about 10-20 years *ago*). this is why Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Witchcraft, Neopaganism *and* Satanism are related as Western traditions: around the central elements I outlined previously (martyrdom, co-opting of language, and the psychoanalysis of resident culture). re: Christianity's possible origin of the 'Hell' concept I really think it is worthwhile looking to see if *anything* is original in Christianity, since many of its elements (if not most) were adopted from previous cultures and cults. the term 'Hel', for example, apparently derives from a Norse Underworld goddess. the concept of the Underworld of course does not derive from Christianity, nor does an Underworld Place of Torment for Past Transgressions (this can be found in many cultures, including Chinese and Indian). the ideas as presented in _The Bible_ (e.g. Gehennom) appear to be co-options of previous Jewish terminology extended to the length of a Herd-Goad. within Christian cosmology Hell appears to be a place to which Christians go. observe that not only the 'sinners' go there, but also do the saints and saviors make the journey as a kind of purgative mystical enterprise (Job who had it taken to him, Christ who sometimes portrayed as going to its Master or directly into it himself, among others). re: trying to 'recover the old religions' it has always seemed strange to me that this is being done, and the only explanation for it which made sense to me is that of attempting a connection with the 'Golden Age of the Past'. it strikes me and has others that my religion of the present ought arise spontaneously, drawing from whatever I like and whatever thrills me, whether this be something 'ancient' or whether it is newly-devised. if I can effect this without doing nonconsensual things, all the better as far as I am concerned. to a certain extent there is a great deal of emphasis on lineage and authority BY the present religious establishment in order to retain what power it has from new religious which offer competition. no longer able to dissuade through force of threat (the power of the state having been sheared away to some extent), 'the Church' (Christian religious establishment by a variety of names) perpetuates its consistent, indoctrinating propaganda. this propaganda is believed even by those who move away from their religion, and perpetuates itself like meme-infection around the culture within which new religious society congregates. thus we have attempts to be 'ageless and primordial', 'moral and virtuous', 'disciplined and serious', etc. taboos against some of what *constituted* pre-Christian religion still predominate, such as that against sacrifices of animals and other things, sexuality as part of public and ritual lifestyle, and the usage of psychoactives within dedicated ritual ecstasy. some ritual styles are perpetuated too, such as the Essenic 'Cakes and Wine' Communion sacrament, annointing, the fabrication of contained sacred space, and a variety of other elements which are overlooked in ignorance by those who perpetuate them in some sort of 'alternative' religion (I leave for discussion what is 'alternative', what is 'ancient' and what is 'valuable'). it seems to me that we have a LONG way to go in coming to face just how closely-related new religions are to the old, what we value in terms of spontaneity and control over others (cf. the 'Burning Man' revelries, where this kind of thing is being explored diligently, reflection of not only the Wicker Man of the ancients but of the Urban Legends -- see the famed movie of the same name), and how we shall struggle with the issues of authority vs confidence games. these things are not at ALL resolved by changing some godnames, expanding the pantheon, and detaching the sacred space to a nonphysical construction. I haven't got the impression that "shunning others' rituals and practices" (aside from the Christian, which was my point previous) was a NECESSARY component of Satanism (though I know very little about what is being done, ritually, amongst Satanists and would like to hear more). in my own life I have at times adopted elements and/or conventions of the religious of other styles, but have largely constructed what I'm doing in REFLECTION on those previous and (importantly) guided by my intuition (an artistry, which is what you may be talking about and what LaVey talks about when describing 'Greater Black Magick'). re: Satanic ritual always being new this can be said of most Neopagan ritual, I'd say, though the ossification of riteforms into traditional formats has occurred along certain formulae, which makes possible structured systems of clergy (e.g. Wiccan degrees) and a modicum of secrecy. what is being created amongst Satanists is in part a REFLECTION and a CO-OPTION. this may only make itself known through the terminology of the labels of the rites (such as "cursing", "Black Mass" and "sacrifice"), and it may have very important connections to the ideas of controversial rites in Urban Legends (e.g. how easily it is to compare the Wiccan "Sabbats" with stories of 'Witches Sabbaths' from Inquisitory times or the Thelemic 'Gnostic Mass' with the Black Mass of old France and surrounds. by examining the real 'ancientness' and 'newness' we may begin to really understand the dynamics involved here between the Condemnatory Urban Legend used by politicals to disparage and pressure neuvo-religious, and the Co-Opting Martyrdom which is levelled as an important psychospiritual goad and self-transformation tool in the face of such condemnation. this is nowhere more evident than the assertions by LaVey and others that the Black Mass is means of 'deprogramming' from previous culture, contemporary Satanists comparing it to the Panchatattva of the Indian tantrics. we *all* have alot to learn, and while I don't claim that what I say about this is necessarily true, I keep coming upon evidence to support it strongly, inclusive of divisive and heated discussions and comparative sociological examples like the Discordians and Dobbsians, the Process Church, the Yazidis and the Virasaivites. Blessed beast! nocTifer tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com -- see http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html and call: 408/2-666-SLUG!!! ---- (emailed replies may be posted) ---- CC public replies to author ---- * * * Asphalta Cementia Metallica Polymera Coyote La Cucaracha Humana * * *