Path: Supernews!kudonet.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (lorax) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.ethics,alt.religion.wicca,alt.pagan,talk.euthanasia,alt.satanism,talk.religion.misc Subject: Wiccan Satanists? (was Re: Off the wall question....) Date: 9 Jun 1997 15:19:44 -0700 Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services Lines: 245 Sender: tyagi@bjt.net Message-ID: <5nhvi0$p3o@kudo20.kudonet.com> References: Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (lorax) NNTP-Posting-Host: kudo20.kudonet.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Xref: Supernews alt.magick.tyagi:12704 alt.magick.ethics:2514 alt.religion.wicca:73588 alt.pagan:217131 talk.euthanasia:6484 alt.satanism:70314 talk.religion.misc:295653 49970609 AA2 Hail Satan! Kerry Delf (kld@jersey.uoregon.edu): >: Some Wiccans are near-Jainists, interpreting the Rede literally: An ye >: harm NONE (though they ususally exclude bacteria and insects from this >: rule, IME). of idea, perhaps. I have *never* met a Wiccan who carried it practically to anything like this extreme. in fact, given that Jainists are promoted in extremity as fruit-loving barefooters who watch where they are stepping to avoid killing bugs, I think they provide a good example for Wiccans who are at all serious about the Rede. if anyone wants to post something about Jains here (changing the Subject: header) I'd be obliged. >: Others are more aware and tolerant of situational ethics -- >: allowance is made for self-defense, food animals, and so on. to the detriment of the Wiccan Rede and their consistency. self-defense I can halfway see (I am mostly a pacifist personally), but food animals, especially those killed by others and not personally known, constitute 'harm' not only to the animals but often to the land which is used to range them. the Wiccan I adore is a vegetarian, perhaps a Jainist or Rasta fruit-lover (on account of not killing plants either!). >: Others only follow the Rede when it suits their convenience, I assert this is the bulk of the Wiccan community, largely white, middle- class, and prone to self-centered fantasies about 'nature-worship' while driving their spouse and children down the highway eating McDonalds burgers. there comes a point where argumentation and facade break down. >: using the excuse "I'm only the agent of the Threefold Law -- the >: Goddess wouldn't allow my curse (or whatever) to harm this person >: if they didn't deserve it." and why not interpret harm and 'the Goddess' in this way? more power to them, I suppose. >: And some probably ignore the Rede altogether -- hey, it's a >: do-it-yourself religion. damn straight. Rede schmede, just don't be hypocritical about it, I say. marjorie@netcom.com (Marjorie Rosen): >The only Wiccans I am aware of who do *not* follow the Ethic this is incredibly vague after Ms. Delf's elaborations. what do you mean by "follow the Ethic" here? under what application of ethics and 'harm' are you proceeding? without this specification your claim amounts to hand-waving. I've never known a Wiccan who lived like a Jain ascetic (the closest I've ever seen is me). more often people bypass 'lifestyle' as an inconsequent feature of their 'religion', just like a great number of other religious the world over. doing the rites, saying the words, essentially putting on a facade of real difference is what most popular religion comes down to, and I haven't yet noticed that Wicca is really all that different (though I'm hoping to set an alternative example). >are self-trained individuals horrors! >who have not had a teacher who would toss them ass over teakettle if they >gave her that type of baloney. would we *want* this type of 'teacher'? >And as for *ignoring* the Ethic altogether, well, the results would speak >for themselves. would they? or could they be carefully concealed behind hypocrisy? >: Some Satanists aren't Thelemite-types. Those who do honor "Do what thou >: Wilt shall be the whole of the Law" sometimes do see it as an excuse to do >: whatever they want, 'tis true -- no excuses necessary. >: but this is not true of all. by your reckoning. I challenge your understanding of the maxim. even Crowley, who purloined the text to his lasting credit, claimed that any interpretation of it was correct, as long as the interpreter be illuminated. >: I, for one, tend to think that unwarranted harm is a bad idea: it >: serves little positive purpose, and it often has repercussions which >: I would rather avoid. Thus, one might find a "happy medium" between >: Crowley's and Gardner's respective versions of the Law, harming none >: without "just cause." license for violation? hehehe, without Rede Officers? humans can't be so trusted. >Oooooooh, better watch out! That nasty little concience (sp?) will get >you the reputation as a fluffy bunny! most people have consciences droned into us from the first year of public indoctrination (school) and trance-induction (tv-viewing). too bad it only applies to a circumscribed and limited value-set (which serves the purposes of human agencies). >: It IS possible to be both -- Tyagi Nagasiva (whose NG this is crossposted >: to, BTW) is an example of a self-defined Wiccan Satanist (or a Satanist >: Wiccan, take your pick). alt.magick.tyagi is not 'my newsgroup'. 'tyagi' merely means 'monk' or 'renunciant' and connotes a mystical enterprise which the newsgroup attempts to foster via syncretism and the combination of magical and mystical posts. I'm syncretic, combining many different paths as I understand them. those who do not enjoy my interpretations of the labels and spiritual paths that are indicated by the terminology will necessarily disagree with my usage. >Now here I have a difference with most of what I've heard about Satanists hearing about and hearing from is two different things. one of the first things to learn about Satanism is that generally it incorporates a different notion of 'Satan' than is popularly understood (just like Wicca uses a different (revised, co-opted, corrected, your choice) version of 'witchcraft' than is popularly presumed). another is that this Satan is seldom worshipped in any overt sense. my Satanism is no different than this. >- I have no trouble with a Wiccan focusing more on Set, Nepthys, Hecate, >or any other of the darker Gods. that is my pathway, though I am not just focussed on Kali, but permanently dedicated to Her as I come to understand Her. >They have a definite place in the Cosmos. all gods do. >So if Tyagi is reading this thread, he/she can tell me what their >definition of a "Satanist Wiccan" is. I'm not sure I've codified it. I can describe some of it to you, though. by 'Satan' I understand an anthropomorphism of wild nature (diseases, tornados, leopards, bunnies (when truly wild), wildwoods, unspoilt deserts, human incivility, space, other planets, etc.) whose expression has been delegated a severe list of activities for which the religious cannot find room in their own divinity (deception, death, destruction, etc.). I have envisioned Hir (androgyous) icon as something resembling that which is popularly associated with the Levi'an Baphomet -- a confluence of human and animal features dressed in arcane symbolism. Satan is related to my dedication in that SHe is the wild aspect of Kali-as-(Mother)Nature. Kali is related to Satan as She is the sakti (power) of Satan and Satan's Guardian Warrior. all of this provides some theoretical/thealogical/cosmological backdrop, though it says little but in reflection of what either Satanism or Wicca is to me. my Wicca is less about ceremonialism (though I am continuing to attempt to integrate this tradition into my life through ongoing negotiations with more conventional -- Gardnerian/eclectic -- Wiccans), and more about *basic lifestyle*. spirituality starts at my home and my homelife. what I do and don't do in comparison and relation to the people around me (humans, other people with less or more legs, etc.) has meaning. attending to this with real mindfulness is what I may exemplify and inspire. I have written elsewhere what I find valuable about Wicca from a lifestyle vantage-point. the Rede is an excellent guideline, the Three-fold Law of Revenge I find valuable to keep in mind when relating to human beings and their notions of 'proper social conduct'. nature-worship and becoming a 'Bender' ('wicce'/bend) in more than one sense in response to that nature (inner/outer) is what I'm about, and what I continue to promote publically. the circle and the star have always been important symbols for me, though by the time I found the "Wiccan community" I grew to dislike its faddish use. the Circle (space between the worlds, a container for changing energies) and Quarters (Working Cube) of magick have always been a part of my arcane practice, albeit with a different set of symbolic associations and concepts than I first encountered in popular Wicca. the various Neopagan attitudes towards sexuality, psychoactives, morality and freedom of religion have always drawn me. the fire circle with drums and dancing naked bodies is to me the epitome of meaningful rite, its subsequent orgia the bounty of liberation and sovereignty due its willing participants (read 'witches sabbat'). Satanism for me is a refinement of my Wicca, thus it would properly be a prependage ("Satanist Wiccan") in that my dedicatory focus revolves around the wrathful (Christian "evil") and integral of wild nature (such as is depicted of the Asuras/Daemons, of whom Kali is their Queen) and is only a SERVICE to that entity (not a worship per se beyond valuation and promotion of re-integration into the human consciousness of repressed qualities such as destruction, death and disease in more than opposition- relationships). my Wicca started when I was a teenager. I learned to do ritual from books on magick and witchcraft and from my own innovation (not from any teacher). I integrated popular music (heavy metal, progressive rock, artsy, psychedelic and new age) and selected psychoactives into the rite as well as my own dance, song and music (drums, flute, rattles, whatever). gradually I began applying the Wyrding Way to myself and my surroundings. it is not violent. it is at times disturbing or alarming. my life has changed accordingly, eventually refining into Satanism in reflection of popular notions, both condemnatory and propositional. my Satanism has been an envelope to my life (my mother has many Satanic values and I was raised with these, many coincident to my Wicca -- those of nature, freedom, rebellion against oppressive authority, imaginative artistry, feminism, the disciplining value of struggle, among others). it developed into something formal over the last few years (ritually acknowledged and fortified through a blood pact with Satan -- exchanging my entirety for the satiation of my every desire). I've several ideas about what my Satanism includes, such as the co-option of popular condemnatory language and appearances toward liberating themes (cf. such writers as Crowley, Gardner and LaVey), the engaging of the personal and social Shadow for the purposes of integration (Jung), and the adherence to certain lifestyle targets (Nonprocreation as a Commandment, Sodomy (nonprocreative sexuality), Abortion (termination of unwanted inner parasites), Suicide (self-termination as a valued and assisted enterprise) and Cannibalism (a suitable flesh-food source for those who insist on this type of food)) such as are popular in my church (Church of Euthanasia). you can find alot of what I think of as my own Satanism at the vamamarg web site (soon to be undergoing revision I suspect, URL below). independence, the rebellion against unwanted authority, and the focus on what we find scary and 'spooky' are emphasized, along with a dedication to nature-service (self/other). blessed beast! lorax, anti-drone of the evul fluff-bunny wikkhunz from Hel tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (vamamarg: http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html )