From DarkMuse-L@necronomi.com Sun Apr 23 15:38:36 1995 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id PAA09296 for ; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 15:38:35 -0700 Received: from uucp.intac.com (uucp.intac.com [198.6.114.27]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id PAA00412 for ; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 15:38:03 -0700 Received: from necronomi.com (uucp@localhost) by uucp.intac.com (8.6.10/8.6.5) with UUCP id SAA26706; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 18:16:50 -0400 From: DarkMuse-L@necronomi.com (DarkMuse-ML (Private)) Reply-To: DarkMuse-L@necronomi.com To: DML-repository@necronomi.com, cthulhu@necronomi.com, dvera@met.com, kfilan@netcom.com, tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com, ix@pentagon.io.com, egan@ccsnet.com, lilith@dorsai.org, paulhume@geis.geis.com, suti@crl.com, sarikka@Eng.Auburn.EDU, wednsday@necronomi.com, jpoirot@usa.net, cb05@Lehigh.EDU, corvus@pudu.microserve.com Subject: Fwd: Noncyber Satanism and the GMC Date: 23 Apr 1995 20:38:50 GMT Message-Id: <1919418334.9312223@necronomi.com> Organization: The Familiar Spirit BBS (201)837-5914 Status: RO From: NocTifer (tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com) (still can't tell how many K's) (535 lines; 26152 characters) Kali Yuga 49950423 [ hapi k@s dee ] |From: Kevin Filan (kfilan@netcom.com) |Date: 23 Apr 1995 09:52:11 GMT |>From: Diane Vera (dvera@met.com) |>...Satanism has more than its share of idiots What do we get out of discussing and criticizing them? |>based on (1) comparison between the Pagan-identified participants in |>alt.pagan vs. the Satanist-identified participants in alt.satanism I think that for some people it comes down to an identification-game. |>and (2) what I've seen of both Pagan/Wiccan/New Age and Satanist |>periodicals. Again, it is rather easy to portray oneself in many different ways through writing. My main interest is in what Darkpath folx do OFFline. DO. I've heard lots of theory and mythic association and I do agree that these do form a kind of inspiration for the Darkness in the lives of those who persistently write these things about themselves, but it still doesn't say what the RESULT (or origins if we are serious about our claims) of that identification is aside from controversy and 'gee wiz oh wow cool I'm dark and bad' that gets so many goths and vampires their jollies. |>Satanist idiots are more likely than Pagan/Wiccan/New Age idiots to |>be zine editors, writers, and/or BBS junkies. It's hard to say.) 'Idiot' is a relative qualifier (as, I will more and more often assert until shown otherwise) are most of the denigrating and symbolic words that you are using, Diane. This doesn't make them valueless, it just shows more about your own prejudices and preferences (and perhaps those in the surrounding culture or the culture from which you come, whatever that may be) than it does something concrete, which you seem to wish to establish. We're dealing with images here, and words, all of which may be sculpted by the adept into horrific images without basis in the physical world. Oooooo, I'm a Satan worshipper. Ooooooo. How does this *manifest* in my life? Oh, let's not get into that. I might have to admit that I'm like most of the rest of this fad -- a shocker and a mocker. I'm not saying anything about anyone specific here, just complaining about the lack of substance in most Darkpath and Satanist forums. |...many intelligent Satanists _realize_ that it's not in their best |interests to be puclicly identified with the "Satanist" scene. I'm not sure this is true. Well, sure, if you mean REALLY public (i.e. in everyday life, offline, away from the light-show of periodicals), then I agree completely. Otherwise I think that there are some definite advantages, socially, to identify with those whom you find intriguing or 'on top of things'. |In our culture "Wiccans" and "Pagans" are pretty much acceptable. I'm not sure what 'our culture' is, but if you mean modern Euroam, I agree that it is *becoming* more acceptable to be a 'Wiccan' (quite specifically) and to a lesser extent, a 'Pagan' or 'Neopagan', even though Raven quite rightly argues that these latter two are the rough equivalent of 'not your (Christian) religion' when all the coins are tossed. |...in general the "New Age" movement has made most Wiccan/Neopagan |ideals and practices tolerable. 'New Age'? I find the link between the so-called 'New Age Movement' and Neopaganism to be fascinating. I've been working a local New Age Renaissance Faire (mostly an exhibition of products and organizations) for several years. If I had to quantify what the New Age Movement represents I'd have to say by and large Spiritualism and a few yogic and Christian elements tossed into a salad of Crystals and Pseudo-science. The Neopagans did in fact have a booth there for many years, and the book- sellers do come and sell their Neopagan and magical texts. All in all I think there is not such a wide divergence between the two as is commonly assumed. I won't go off on this tangent, though. |Satanism, on the other hand, is a whole different story. You know, I agree with this, and I think it stems from a Christian (and to lesser extent Muslim) attitude toward what some call 'Satanism'. I.e. they typically now castigate very typical 'pagan' religions as 'Satanism' when they appear to represent heresy (that which flows opposite to the fundi extremity). Sometimes this does include NAM-folx, sometimes not. The point is that 'Satanist' has replaced 'Witch' as the condemnation-label of choice (much as 'Asshole' and 'Idiot' has replaced 'White Lighter' or 'Self-styled' within the Satanic community). Everybody likes to complain about somebody. There is always someone 'not doing it right' somewhere, and these get called by various names at various times. For religious purposes within a largely JCI culture the label has become 'Satanist' and this is has been 'Pagan' and 'Witch' and 'Jew' (and, looking way back, even 'Christian') in the past. |When you add to that the fact that many of the "loud and proud" Satanists |are, bluntly, an embarassment, you can see why many intelligent Satanists |might choose to remain underground. You go on to mention people in Usenet's alt.satanism. Those are quite poor examples of 'embarassment'. If you people are going to focus on these 'assholes' and 'idiots' and 'embarassments', then I'd like to hear more substance from you. Tell us about those OFFLINE who do the 'bad things' which you would rather have excised from Satanism once and for all. Get to what you have PERSONALLY EXPERIENCED rather than what you've heard in press and via your cronies. In short, let's stop the 'Urban Legend Craze' and take a look at what's really around us besides people making noise on a Usenet newsgroup. |Why should you publicly acknowledge that you're a member of a group that |includes ... [a] whole host of imbeciles...? People do it all the time. Given the history of 'Satanism' I think part of the equation is that most of us DON'T publicly acknowledge our connections with people we don't like who use similar identification. No, instead we bitch whine moan and complain because of Those Idiots who are Recking It All for Us. I think it is valuable to have imbeciles as part of one's religion. It gives the 'other religions' (and the surrounding culture) something to be afraid of (which keeps some distance) and gives those of us who are only concerned with castigation and wrong-finding someone on whom to focus our prejudicial and biased condemnation. |there are quite a few Satanists or people with LHP leanings who have kept |quiet merely because it was in their best interest to do so. Good. Sheep to the slaughter, I say. |...it's likely that many intelligent Satanists choose to stay out of the |public eye. Of *course*. It is *always* easier to do one's own thing and keep clear of the public conscience. Coming into the limelight only leads to the cycle of glorification and then destruction at the hands of new heroes. On the other hand, there is a certain amount of truth in saying that those who aren't out in the open about their religion are not being true to the Devil -- i.e. they are only partially Satanist due to the inconvenience of fully acknowledging their devotions. |>What I find even more disheartening is that, as I see it, Satanist |>idiots are completely USELESS, .... Because they won't sit still, shut up, and listen to what you have to say. I think it is wonderful that Satanism involves the USELESS. It reminds me of Taoism in this way, though much more wrathful. Everything doesn't revolve around the intellect. Some 'idiots' are quite emotionally-charged. [re: Satanists and Neopagans/New Agers] |...We may not like each other very much, but we sure as hell need each |other. And any thinking person will conclude, upon even the most |cursory examination of the evidence, that the "Satanic crime" hysteria |is bunk. I've been watching this on the Net for years now. I was likely the first of the online community to seriously, consistently and flatly challenge the Neopagan notions of Satanism, bringing it to them in their newsgroup alt.pagan on a regular basis for several months. This appears to have led to (or paralleled at least) a gradual understanding among the more intellectually-based that there is an Establishment Shell Game afoot, and that we're all being duped into trading Stooge-like whaps to each others' heads. That alerts people to instances of the deceit, but doesn't stop us from believing in the Grand Illusion. Many intelligent people did not have *access* to evidence which contradicted the Satanic crime hysteria. Raised on Christian nightmares it is not too difficult to understand why Neopagans would believe the crap portrayed by the SRA business. The concept of Satanists and Neopagans *needing each other*, at least in Usenet, is a NEW ONE, one I'm happy to continue feeding it. There have been few who would support such a controversial stand, the Neopagans calling us 'Evil' and the Satanists 'weak'. I'm happily donning both monikers (less often 'weak', but I'll work on it) and I notice a slough of both groups now cross-posting between alt.pagan and alt.satanism. I think that this is a very positive sign. The "intelligent" Satanists have previously merely castigated the Neopagans for their blatant and rude antics in reaction to the SRA business. I found Michael Aquino, for example, to be quite closed-minded about the usefulness of attempting some sort of dialog between himself and the head of the Church of All Worlds. Therein is a symbolism of the Great Divide. I would say that Michael Aquino is involved with AMER, to his credit, but at least within the ONLINE community I didn't find his attitude at all cooperative. |...they're likely to at least listen to you long enough for you to prove |that you're not a raving idiot. That varies too. What's happening is that Satanism is being defined in ways which limit its effectiveness, and this because it must be rechar- acterized so as to fit within the knowledge-structures of those to whom we may be defining it. It is an alchemy of sorts, the New Age White Lighters beginning to understand that the Darkness might have 'positive aspects' while the Satanists and Darksiders focus on these 'positive aspects' in order to be understood (see KFilan's example of this below). The plain fact is that the negative is as or more important to the Satanist and Darkpath culture, but as usual the co-opting has begun and moralizing is normalizing those who exemplify the core emotional charge of the path itself. | The "Satanism" espoused by many of the "Wave Your Willie" |Satanists, on the other hand, does not do this. While I hate to agree |with many of the "white lighters" who bash _all_ Satanists with this |stick, I will admit that for many of these people _their_ Satanism _is_ |an inversion of Judeochristian ideals. As if this is a crime. I think it is very valuable to initially oppose one's dominant cultural values. Even if this draws one into formally and strongly defining oneself with respect to it. This is what the New Agers and Neopagans have done in their immaturity also. It is a part of the life-cycle of a cult and the development of the Satanist, just as Anton LaVey so wisely points out. |As such, they are more concerned with _rejecting_ ideals they see as |incorrect than with accepting opposing points of view. Exactly. Banishing before the invocation. |(In this they share something in common with the more rabid |"Fundamentalists," .... Of course. Fundamentalism is the unripened state of religion. We don't burn the bud because it has not flowered. We do not whip the lemon flower because it has not yet generated lemons. We DO enslave and castigate children because they have not yet become 'adults'. Fundamentalists have their value, if nothing else to preserve a very specific and formalized version of the religion of which they are a part. I've learned much from fundamentalists of all stripes. And far from merely rejecting the Heretic, the fundamentalist usually has a very specific agenda which includes the mouthing of particular esoteric concepts poorly understood. Some have memorized these so well that I have used them as reflectors of the esoteric element of their religion when they were able to separate witnessing from condemnation. |>...Satanist idiots are worse than useless politically. Oh NO! |>They are so wrapped up in their "superman" fantasies that they don't |>even notice that, politically speaking, THEY are the weakest of "The |>Weak" (besides being weak in the sense of stupid, too). I'm not sure that this is at all the case, though I'm happy to associate with the weak (yin, the receptive, the accepting, the flexible). To be powerless is to be thoroughly programmed by the dominant culture into thinking one is strong. I.e. those who think that they are 'doing what they wish to do' while being a hopeless and hapless tool of the establish- ment are the SHEEP of which Satanists speak, regardless of how much FORCE these sheep might bring to bear. These 'supermen' are in the initial stages of casting off those shackles, first by taking on other yokes which appear 180-degrees at variance, and then realizing, over time, the limitations of reactionary thinking. You do none of us service by arguing for an end to their learning process. |>It is beneath their purported supermanhood to notice that it |>would be helpful to have allies. They get their kicks by pouring |>contempt on the only people who even theoretically respect |>Satanists' right to exist (or who can be easily persuaded to): |>Wiccans and other "liberals", "hippies", and "bleeding hearts" -- |>all of whom they hate MORE than they hate the right-wing Christians |>who actually ARE out to get Satanists. And they further alienate |>their only potential friends by adoring the very people who would |>most love to destroy us all, namely the extreme right. Of course. Destruction of the old, of the accepted, becomes a very important focus. Here you are only making them wrong for doing very important short-term things. If you castigate them from 'on high' then you'll only inflame it further. I.e. if you go about telling people how 'silly' and 'idiotic' and 'ignorant' they are because of what you are here characterizing as a FAILING, then you'll only drive them further toward the extreme right. |...I agree with their contention that modern Wicca/Paganism/"New Age" |thinking is largely regurgitated Christianity, A very interesting and worthwhile contention. I found it valuable to maintain it while within the midst of Neopagans and Newagers and I still find that the argument has substance. Of course it all depends on what you take 'Christianity' to include, and this varies alot. |>It wouldn't be so bad if the idiots were clearly a _MINORITY_ among |>public Satanists, but they aren't. I hope that tells you something. |>...they seem to constitute a _MAJORITY_ of visible CoS members these days. What, online? In CoS periodicals? What do you mean by 'visible'? |>...people like Isaac Bonewits and Lewis Stead have a point when they |>argue that Satanists, as a whole, are such jerks that Pagans should |>have nothing to do with us. Given the premise that certain behaviors ought draw the label 'jerk' and that people who exhibit these (largely immature, selfish and attention- seeking ploys) ought be ignored or thrown to the Christian wolves, then I do see the logic. The problem is that the problem is continued not resolved. Making other people into what you want or casting them out is precisely what Christian culture has attempted to do and largely succeeded. Take measures of protection, by all means. I do not mean to suggest that what might seriously harm you or the society in which you live (including those who make so much noise you cannot continue a rational discussion) ought not be guarded against. However, spending Our time talking about Them and Their Idiotic ways will only get Us so far. Attempting to banish Them from Our Group or from forums in which They express Their Inane Views is just more of the same Us vs. Them silliness that We have faced for years at the hands of other 'Us'es. My main assertion is that if this doesn't change, only the names and some of the symbols will do so, all those who participate in the 'Satanism movement' will be duplicating wasted energies, chasing our tails. All the while those who represent a Serious Threat laugh and point to the laws and common misperceptions which They have been able to Foist onto the Gullible Public. |>I find this situation infuriating. |As do I. Good. Go with that. Feel the fury. Act on it. Go to an 'Asshole Satanist' and RELEASE IT UPON THEM. They are the True Priests of Angst. They are the Ministers of Mayhem. I shall be their Poop if they so desire. Rail against Us to Our face rather than to your Comrades in Arms. EXPRESS THE ANGER TO THE PERCEIVED SOURCE. Then, if you can, remain aware of what happens. Try to stay present. Be open for Unexpected Results. |For the time being, though, I think we're stuck with it. 'It' is your release and your salvation. The pot is stuck with its blackness. |...Fascist claptrap aside, I think we all agree that a society which |promotes religious freedom is in our best interests). I agree, and I don't think that Fascism is religious, even while it may be used in religious ways. Fascism, from what little I know about it, is primarily political and perhaps, less so, economical. I haven't made a serious study of it and presume that most who speak of it have not either. |>My main proposal so far as to what to do about it, namely |>encouraging gay Satanists to be more open about their sexuality, Other-centered. You're perpetuating that which you are screaming against. Focussing on what other people do. This is likely one of the last times I'll comment on this particularly interesting phenomenon (illness?) which I note is shared by Fundies of all stripes and their Antagonists. |>...acknowledging my spiritual (for lack of a better word) |>orientation meant, among other things, _GIVING_UP_ some of my |>previous rebellion-focussed worldview in favor of a more realistic |>approach.... Many Christians would agree. Submit to the Lord and be as children before the Great God Our Father. One doesn't come to the True Faith until one is able to See the Light and Truth of the One Path. Everyone knows that there is only One True and Only Way to go about Our Religion. Those who stray from that One Path we shall excommunicate and cast off as heretics. |...how do we _channel_ that anger and rebelliousness and allow it to vent |in productive and constructive ways? This is the Newagism of which I spoke above. You see the focus here on 'channeling away bad emotions'? Instead of experiencing them to their fullest (something adolescents are thrust into by virtue of their changing hormones), we focus on 'venting them elsewhere'. Also note the focus on 'productivity' and 'construction'. The JCI cultures all center on Creation, Production, Construction, Making, Positing, Adding, Joining, Unity, Harmony and, of course, Light. What I see happening within most of the sects of the Great Martyrdom Cult is that an association gets toggled and so on the surface the social milieu appears to change, but at its base it retains most of its programming. This is why I like to associate Darkness with Destruction, Laziness, Cutting, Ending, Dissolving, Negating, Separating, Diversity and Discord. It is why a number of Neopagans and Satanists (so called) cling to the 'immature' notions about chaos and disintegrative ethics and metaphysics, often being utterly and temporarily reactionary. |How do we express a righteous anger at a society which is constrictive and |repressive, while at the same time avoiding unnecessary conflict? The problem is that we are, on the whole, NOT TRAINED TO KNOW WHAT CONFLICT IS NECESSARY. We think that avoiding conflict _=_ peace, we think that confrontation is rude and that expressing 'negative emotions' (especially anger) is contrary to the general welfare. I'm here to tell you that that is largely bullshit, designed to support the group rather than the individual, the established norms rather than innovation, immaturity rather than the transformation which these passions can bring. I think that laws are restrictive boundaries that society lays out in order to protect the group and that more often than not it also conditions people to avoid self-esteem, self-respect and independence. Given this, most organizations and most states are repressive to their core, and those who would grapple with this *MUST*, I repeat, *MUST* seriously consider the value of transgressing the laws and customs of the culture in which they find themselves. Doing things which people find 'repulsive' and/or 'not acceptable' and even illegal can become rites of personal evolution. It is difficult to know what someone needs to do to unfold and mature. |>There will always be _SOME_ idiots around, but perhaps we can change |>the proportion of idiots and their relative visibility, and thus |>perhaps we can change the overall atmosphere of the Satanist scene |>-- which is something I really would like to do if at all possible. (satire alert) Near beer is just as good without the alcohol, as is grape juice just as valuable without it. If there were some way to make the effects of cigarette smoke or coffee go away and just have that neat taste which both lend to the experience, then we would be better off. If only there weren't children who misbehaved. If only there were never any conflicts and the world was a Jehovah's Witness Dream Come True. (satire off) Asshole Satanists are essential elements of the movement. Separate from them at your expense. |...By presenting our own ideas in a reasonable, mannered, and intelligent |fashion, we can create an alternative to the idiocy. Intelligence is a necessary component of mature Satanism. As it occludes the *other* necessary components (e.g. anger, fear, rebellion), then it outlives its value quickly and becomes something other than Satanism. To a great extent the Temple of Set has proven this out. |...search the net and elsewhere for intelligent, competent Satanists and |LHPers and get them affiliated with us. Yes, polarize and exclude. That will help you to see better the Us/Them divide and begin to fall beneath the Practiced Blade of the Oppressor who murmurs 'Divide and Conquer' in your left ear, knowing you'll take it literally, dividing from those who within your own who 'bring you down'. |A loose, unofficial group (for now) of Satanic intellectuals might be |able to undo a lot of the damage which some of the louder morons are doing. What damage? To a 'tarnished reputation'? What is your 'Dream Satanism' that you would 'undo the damage' (that the 'loud morons' have done? -- heh, you're forgetting about the fundi Xtians who laid the groundwork and have perpetuated a brilliant SRA compaign which is disintegrating around them within the popular society -- you should THANK these people, not ostracize them, if you are concerned about your media exposure, potential for growth and development of Satanism). |...why don't we create a Satanic 'zine of our own? I suggest that while this would do very much for the factionalism and decentralization which Neopagans enjoy and rail against, it might be better to begin by merely engaging rational discourse as we are doing and allowing a wide variety of reasonably mature individuals (regardless of the character and 'quality' of their expressions) to exchange ideas. This is what made possible the narrowing of the divide between the Neopagans and Satanists, at least online. Exposure brought down the legends and slanders and exposed (albeit unwillingly) each group's intellectuals to the others. Separating out brings division and narcissism. No real problem with this, but it just perpetuates what you're complaining about, I'd wager. The Next Wave of the GMC will come up with a better approach and use words you will not like to describe actions which you condemn in much the same manner. Change thyself mage, and see if you can accept what masquerades as your Enemy. |...If there were more good Satanic material out there, maybe you'd be able |to provide a counterbalance to those imbeciles who have read _The Satanic |Bible_, listened to a few heavy metal albums, and then set themselves up as |"Satanists." They *are* Satanists. Just as much as any 'Christian' who goes to church on Sundee, reads snippets from the Good Book and watches Reverend Falwell or Graham on the teevee is truly Christian. We take these sorts who integrate a veneer over their ordinary life and call it 'religious' as representative of the majesty which is the Christian path. I don't see why the same style of Satanists shouldn't be just as easily accepted, except that the people you are talking about tend to be COUNTER-CULTURAL (in limited, sometimes self-destructive ways). That makes them DANGEROUS (and, I argue, *trans- formative*). I will be posting my remarks here to public forums to seed precisely the kind of counter-argument to these typical 'get rid of the idiots and things will be ok' assertions. I'd also like Diane's and Kevin's (offlist or no) approval to reproduce their words, even if anonymously, but I don't expect this. NocTifer the Asshole Satanist tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com --------------------------- The Darkness dwells in us all, the seething fury of insane gibbering and howling at unknown fears and boundaries. Some of us become this Darkness, instead of keeping it hidden inside, and these are the true Walkers of the Dark Path, regardless of any names or proclamations or beliefs. --- Internet Message Header Follows --- Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (root@nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by uucp.intac.com (8.6.10/8.6.5) with ESMTP id OAA22623 for ; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 14:24:57 -0400 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id LAA20144 for ; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 11:24:15 -0700 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id LAA12361 for Darkmuse-l@necronomi.com; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 11:24:13 -0700 Message-Id: <199504231824.LAA12361@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Noncyber Satanism and the GMC To: Darkmuse-l@necronomi.com (Darkmuse Elist) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 11:24:13 -0700 (PDT) From: tyagi@HouseofKaos.Abyss.com (NocTifer the Asshole Satanist) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 26152 .----------------------------------. | The Familiar Spirit BBS- | |a FirstClass system (201) 837-5914| | necronomi.com (GUI Port 3004) | '----------------------------------'