Subject: Re: Satanism and Herd Elitism
References: <3deujk$hg1@news1.shell> <3dfvg9$at5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (mordred)
Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (mordred)

Kali Yuga 49941229


nemoiii@aol.com (NEMO III) writes:

|...(mordred)...wrote an excellent post regarding a recent Black Flame 
|article discussing the value or lack thereof in Satanic organizations.  

Thanks for the compliment.


|First, the human animal is a social animal.  

Neither am I convinced that humans are healthy in groups, nor that we
are 'social animals'.  More often I feel about myself that I am quite
grateful for being spared the presence of the masses.


|There are a wide range of behaviors we humans indulge in which involve 
|community ...such as posting on this computer newsgroup!  

This is perhaps one of the few activities which can appear as a 'community'
that functions as a 'group of individuals'.  Such things as entering into
membership in organized religious groups is a much different affair.


|...our group urges ...  the fact is that we all seem to have them.

This is a rather meaningless statement.  Yes, we all seem to find
some value in associating with groups of humans.  We don't all find
the same value in engaging certain types of humans.  As a loosely-
knit society, living in a geographical area and legislating itself
through politic and police, there are many who choose (for want or
need) to enter into this arrangement.

There are many who also feel a need to congregate and subvert their
wills to the group, the god, and to the gorporation.  Many Satanists
do not do this.


|This issue of "individualists form bad groups" is found in many other
|communities such as with libertarians, objectivists and even anarchists! 

Precisely, though I don't know what what a 'bad group' is, necessarily.
Perhaps it is just a DIFFERENT KIND OF GROUP, and by traditional, popular,
deluded values it would be considered 'bad'.


|The argument that we will always devolve into "herd" social patterns when
|joining a group is not new with Satanism.  All the various "individualists" 
|I have known have argued about this *while in their respective groups*!

Let's get clear here.  Presuming they were right about this, then weren't
they operating against their better interests by joining the herd?  Perhaps
they were Satanic hypocrites.  Perhaps that is all Satanic groups are -- 
just Individualists who talk a good game but can't seem to get it together
enough to forge their own unique path.
 

|As I see it then, the question is not *should* we belong to Satanic groups
|but rather how can we be certain to make the groups we belong to serve our
|best purposes as individual human beings.  And it is here that I have a
|few comments for consideration.

I agree to a point.  I think it valuable to consider more than this, since
it appears that many Satanists change character when involved with these
groups and may not be aware of some of the characteristics of Individualism
any more.

Yes, how can we maximize the value of the groups to which we do belong?
Remember, we don't *have* to belong to any groups.  Just because NEMO III
and maybe Todal and Walter Five pledge allegiance to various doctrines
and books and leaders, this doesn't mean that they aren't deluded and will
someday wake up!  In the case where we do find it of value to enter into
group dynamics, then we must treat it like a science (perhaps 'sociology'
and certainly 'psychology' will aid us here).

BEYOND this, however, we must also learn when and where to draw boundaries
within the group(s), including being involved with elements of the group
or the group as a whole.  When has the group overstepped it bounds, how
can we identify groups which are decaying and becoming overburdensome?


|I see a Satanic group as a major reminder of what Satanism means.  

Yes, surrounding oneself with the energies of the Aeon.


|...the greatest enemy for the Satanist is not other human beings or 
|organizations but his own forgetfulness!  

That Satanism based upon memory is a weak Satanism.


|It is all too easy to forget the elements of the Satanic philosophy in 
|the midst of the myriad details of living life. 

Not if we set ourselves to a firm and clear course which must include these.


|Why?  Because the dimension of conscious awareness is neurologically
|limited.  We depend upon language to symbolize great masses of nested
|concepts in order to think, to plan, to act.  It is all too easy to lose
|sight of basic truths of the Satanic philosophy through simple
|forgetfulness.

While for the moment bypassing the questionable notion of such phrases as
'basic truths of the Satanic philosophy', I would argue that philosophy is
a justification-scheme and the only real revolution is one which is so
rooted into our heads (through rite and rote) that we automatically act
along its lines.  That which must be remembered with flimsy neurons (which
are themselves constantly bombarded with decaying data and brainwashing 
bandwidths) is just so much detergent to wash away the vital remains of
our false will and testament.


|A Satanic group reminds the individual of these truths.  

When it works right, yes.  However, you fail to address the problem of
herd-elitism within Satanic groups.


|Communicating with or even just observing other Satanists acts as a 
|subtle reminder of what it means to be a Satanist.  

Only if it aspires to the ideals, if it achieves that perfect Satanism
which one would not expect within the herd.  Do you really think that
anyone who engages membership in a Satanic organization is ipso facto
a master of their destiny, a true and dyed-in-the-wool Individualist?


|Discussions, just like this one, help to refine our understanding of 
|what Satanism means and how it can be applied to ever more deepening 
|levels of life's experiences.  

And they also act to lull us into a false sense of knowledge, to prepare
us for the coming Dictator who will wave the LOTAN Flag and urge us to
siphon off our energies for the Right Reich.  When Satanists engage each
other via newsgroups like this, fine.  We are isolated through technology
and your words are only as influential as I allow them.  I can killfile
you if you are not something which I wish to program my deep mind.  On the
other hand, if I see that you are wise, I may copy out your words and read
them everywhere I go.  My point is that I am in control of the interaction.

In offline groups this changes radically, and begins to involve all manner
of slogans and banners and degrees and titles, etc. etc.  The social
mechanism is applied to supposedly (in name) Satanic goals.  I contend
that all such uses are BY THEIR NATURE DEGRATORY and must be continually
and skeptically reviewed for their nefarious effects.


|Choosing which group or groups to affiliate with can then become more than
|just a light social gesture.  

It is your light social gesture here when speaking about 'groups to become
affiliated with' that concerns me, however.  You speak as if overlooking
the option to AVOID associating with any group, Satanic or otherwise.  What
of Phase V: Total Environments?  Will these not contain You-Program-It
organizations that support your every whim?


|If one chooses a group which is not true to the fundamental principles of 
|Satanism, that has a hidden agenda or agendas in contradiction to Satanism, 
|then that group will not remind one of what Satanism is, but of something 
|else.  

Problem: if I do not have an understanding of Satanism and wish to affiliate 
with a group in order to come to KNOW what it is, then your advice here does 
e no good whatsoever, since I will not have preconceived notions of what
'Satnic principles' are (luckily, I contend), and I will not know whether
the agendas (hidden or no) are contradictory to Satanism.

No, I say that any who wish to engage Satanism are FOOLISH to indulge in
Satanic organizations until they have their own ideas about what Satanism
means to them and how this will appear in the behavior of others.  In this
way one can protect oneself from the Vampires that such groups become.

Entering into an organization is a Satanic DISCIPLINE, and if I am not
fully prepared for it (and the herd-inspiration that will come of it),
then I will get precisely what I deserve.  Those who are involved in
organized groups of Satanism are suspect and likely programmed into
ignorant submission.  BEWARE!


|Sooner or later the deviation will cost you as you fail to remain aligned 
|with reality and pay the inevitable consequences.

It is statements like this which keep me away from most 'Satanic Philosophy'.


|This is because Satanism is the most realistic philosophy of which I am 
|aware.  

'Realistic' as compared to what?  Is 'Satanism' a self-contained idea-system?
Does it have absolute limitations, or is it defined by the variety of contra-
dictory writings which make up its movement (Setian, Satanist, whatever)?
If it is not truly 'a philosophy' at all, then please clarify that to which
you referred when you spoke of Satanism as 'the most realistic philosophy'.


|Satanism truly respects reality unlike the vast majority of the
|worlds' population who pursue self-defeating philosophies based upon
|altruism, superstition, nationalism, collectivism, etc.  

This is a fantasy.  People don't operate from their heads.  They like to
pretend it so, but mostly they behave based on very limited value-sets
(involving such things as their gonads, pocketbook and tongue).  The
public has been herded by television into animal-mindstates.  I'm not
condemning this, but characterizing these as some sort of lofty self-
defeating philosophies upon which they operate is sheer lunacy.  Yes,
the popular mind *thinks* it is intelligent.  However, it is actually
emotional and physical runoff, justified through rationalization.


|The basic principles of Satanism are clearly based on no external gods, 
|rational self-interest, acceptance of human desires as a guide to pleasure,
|rejection of martyrdom and self-defeating behaviors in general, etc. 

I would call into question any concise set of 'known principles' upon which
Satanism is founded.  In fact, the very language you are using evidences
the fact that your mind has been compromised by powerful group-moderation.
You appear to believe in a set dogma, just like so many other 'official'
Satanists, and this is your doom.


|These basic principles are, of course, spelled out in great detail in *The
|Satanic Bible*.

Consider that this sounds very much like a herd-mind Christian, spouting
forth the popular programming.  Cease your sales and ruthlessly criticize
that which you previously lauded.  Only in this way can we be sure that
you are anything but a cog in the machine.


|One element of confusion arises in considering these principles when it
|comes to the concept of *loyalty*.  

Confusion is a GOOD thing.  Those who fear it are condemned to combat it
and therefore become ignorant.


|Loyalty is a social virtue.  

My Bible says:

# loyal... adj.  1. Steadfast in allegiance to one's homeland, government,
#  or sovereign

So far it just sounds like more herd-cement.

#  2. Faithful to a person, ideal or custom.  3. Of or professing loyalty....
#  [Fr. < OFr. *loial* < Lat. *legalis*, legal < *lex*, law].

Surprised?  The basis of 'loyalty' is law, conformity to expectation,
dependability of behavior reined to within social norms.  This is directly
counter to individuality.  I do not say that one is better than the other.
I only say that LOYALTY IS COUNTER TO SATANISM AT BASE.


|It involves one's behaviors toward someone or something held in some esteem. 

Only in that one retains certain standards.  We can use other words to
describe it without conformity: affection, fondness, honor, etc.  Loyalty
enters into the domain of the FUTURE, which is a patent illusion.


|The confusion arises, I believe, because in a group the major binding
|force is often one of group loyalty which can over-extend into
|non-judgemental, blind support for the group or group elements.

I suggest that where you are drawing lines there are none to be found.
Loyalty binds no matter what, and it is the herd-mechanism active
within the social group.  You have bought the farm boyo, and think that
this is a part of 'legitimate' Satanism.  Sound like 'let's all 
nonconform together!' yet?


|For example, I am loyal to the Church of Satan and Anton LaVey.  

Then you are its slave and your Satanism is compromised.


|The Church of Satan has proven to me to be a reliable guide to the Satanic
|principles laid out in the Satanic Bible.  

No doubt.  Organizations are very good at getting us to believe certain
written texts.  However, there is no 'Satanic Bible' and the principles
of Satanism are ever-changing, just as is life itself.  What you seem to
be calling 'Satanism', however, is just warmed-over rhetoric.

To be sure, I enjoy LaVey's writings, among others, but to hinge my Satanism
to is seems the worst of errors, and to claim that an organized bunch of
people helped you to find your Satanism within the doctrines of a writ seems
the height of folly to me.  Only further indication of the corruption of
the Church.


|Thus I value it as an organization and tend to defend it from attacks 
|made upon it from others. 

Further evidence of your thorough brainwashing.  Satanists don't defend
organizations based upon one's membership or lofty ideals which this org
claims to have.  The defense (or offense) which comes form far deeper
motives (such as anger, lust and pure fun) are the more Satanic.  Yours
are just more dream-fantasies such as are perpetuated by that nasty Temple.
All well and good to occupy your mind in time for justification-schemes,
but it will avail you naught in the end.


|Anton LaVey has proven over the years to be a reliable friend as well as a
|model of embodiment for the application of Satanism.  Thus I tend to value
|him and tend to defend him against attacks made upon him.  I have found
|these two examples to be incredibly useful reminders of what Satanism
|actually is and how it can be applied in life effectively.  

Perhaps 'Satanism' has therefore become a cult-word for you.  Consider that
one of the most important elements of cults is the presence of a central
figure and the LOYALTY to that central figure, his knowledge, wisdom and
skill within the dogma of the organization.  I do not claim to know the
situation, but the way in which you write appears to support the contention
that you are unaware of mind-control techniques, of mass-movement psychology,
or of cult-tactics.  BEWARE!


|If I failed to continue to evaluate both the Church of Satan and Anton
|LaVey (or any other person or organization in my life) based upon the
|principles of Satanism, I would be operating from a blind, herd-consciousness 
|of group loyalty.  That is true.  

Here you may redeem yourself. :>  You appear to continue the meager 
distinction between 'group loyalty' rather than 'personal loyalty'.
If this is true perhaps ours is (as so often is the case) a difference
of semantics, in that you are speaking of what I would call merely
respect, affection and trust, where 'loyalty' I see as a function of
blindness to 'principles'.


|...it is all too easy to become selectively blind to elements which we 
|might wish to overlook in order to maintain that comfortable sense of 
|group loyalty.  This is all too human and natural.

It is natural to be stupid.  This doesn't make it Satanic. :>


|So the answer, I feel, is found in choosing a group (or groups) that
|*does* take the principles of Satanism seriously.  

Let me try to reflect a little of how ridiculous this sounds to me.
It is dangerous, we discover, to play with bombs.  They go off when
we least expect it, have a nasty tendency to hurt people, and may 
find their way into the hands of the Wrong People.

Here you say:

'So the answer, I feel, is found in selecting harmless-looking bombs.'

Rather than AVOID THE BOMBS, study them, know them, defuse and minimize
them -- in short become experts at bomb-detection and destruction -- you
suggest that we take the chance and have them around our home.  Why?
Because they 'might remind you of some cherished ideologies that you
hope to continue living by'.  Bah, I think that if the motive is simply
this, it is not enough, especially when those same organizations which
*supposedly* support individualism begin to become corrupted from within
(AS ORGS INEVITABLY ARE) and will oppress us just like all the rest.

I say don't bother.  Unless I have an over-riding imperative to enter
into an organization for some reason (personally I do, and thus I am
a very good example), then organizations will perpetually waste my time,
attempt to disempower me, and generally attempt to get me to submit to
its will.  I think that this must be part of my basic Satanist philo-
sophy (not some cookbook scheme, but my own brand X style), and I'm
surprised consistently when org-Satanists don't have the guts to agree
that organizations are more dangerous than they look, that we ought to
get a good education regarding group psychology and sociology before
getting too close no matter WHAT the professed philosophy, and that they
don't take a more individualistic approach to their proselytizing.
 

|...the Church of Satan it is both stated explicitly and practiced implicitly 
|that the Satanist is never expected to be a martyr to the "cause" of Satanism.

What does it mean to have 'the Church of Satan' 'state' something?  Why is it
important what the Church of Satan 'states' or 'does not state'?  Is this not
the very confusion of authority of self with that of group about which so many
cult-watchers warn?  

Ok, so the CoS doesn't like martyrdom.  Fine.  What DOES the CoS expect?
If nothing, then you are only trying to divide your organization from some
common herd-group (probably Christian religion).


|...you are told and expected to remain anonymous.  

Does being told what to do based upon my own desires constitute participa-
ting in a 'Satanic organization' by *your standards*?


|...Loyalty to this group (the Church of Satan) depends upon applying 
|Satanism in your personal life, not on just trying to impress other 
|Satanists.

I don't understand this.  I'll bet loyalty to the group depends upon
one's particular character, not behaviors within the group itself.
I think you either misspoke here or you don't know what you are saying.


|against those who have succumbed to error.  

The folly of certainty.


|...recognize when they are dealing with close-minded religious fanaticism 
|as opposed to honest, truth-seeking debate.  

Please delineate for us the characteristic qualities of the closed-minded
religious fanatic and contrast these with the honest and sincere.  Also
explore for us what value there is in 'seeking truth' versus living it.


|*This* Satanic group, called alt.Satanism, should serve us and remind us 
|of what we know to be true and not seduce us into believing that 
|non-Satanists (regardless of what they might call themselves) are 
|actually open to argument.  Unless it serves some other purpose, why 
|waste time arguing with a fanatic?

Why am I arguing with you?  How can I tell if you are a fanatic?
Perhaps we argue for other motives than merely to change minds or
to prove ourselves 'right' in some kind of Internet Joust.  While
I agree with the above, I also think that our motives in argumentation
often proceed from a desire for certainty.  This is why I enjoy
OPPOSING people like NEMO here.  He argues well, thoughtfully, and it
is my objective to argue just as persuasively in opposition, to throw
us all into UNCERTAINTY, for this is the perfect Satanic state of mind.


|As in all things, Satanism should serve the *Satanist*, not the other way
|around.  

Precisely.  How we move from this point is imperative to practice.


|Groups serve the purpose of fulfilling social functions common to human 
|beings 

I.e. 'practicality' of politics and public works.  Agreed.


|and acting as a reminder of what Satanism truly is as well as a forum for 
|refining its application in the outside world.  

Here you stand alone (or with your herd), in that you argue for the benefit
of an entity (social group) which has proven time again to be untrustworthy.
My goal isn't to inspire paranoia, only to kick the pedastel off of this
'group-think' mentalism wherein we posit the absolute value of entering
the placid tranquility into group-ignorance.


|The Church of Satan is the only organization in the world I am aware of, 
|Satanic or otherwise, which is purposefully designed to maintain these 
|positive elements of a group while discouraging the negatives, the worst 
|of which I consider to be blind loyalty.

Notice that other org-Satanists (oS) such as Balanone agreed with you
other premises but when you made this statement he found it objectionable.
Why?  Because you were lauding your home-turf.  You were trying once again
to sway with impassioned rhetoric, thus sullying the reputation of the
CoS as one more slaughterhouse.


|You will inevitably affiliate from time to time with some group (like this
|one, alt. Satanism), so you might as well choose from those which will
|truly help you.  

Alt.satanism, as I said, is much different than some religious offline
group (ToS/CoS).  This is largely because we are not required to conform
in some way (either through contribution of our resources or adherence
to group philosophy/principles as the oS are wont to require).


|Nemo
|Priest
|Church of Satan  

BEWARE OF ANY INDIVIDUAL WHO AFFILIATES WITH ANY ORGANIZATION.
Especially those who use titles or pseudonyms.  I'm not saying that they
are false or idiots (though some might be), only that they are acting
in ways which are quite incompatible with extended Satanism.  BEWARE!

nagasiva, tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (The Order of K@s Under Satan :>)