Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (TOKUS) Newsgroups: alt.satanism,alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.misc,alt.magick Subject: Satanism/Setianism, Crowley (Was Re: Does Satanism exist? ...) Date: 16 Feb 1995 17:16:33 -0800 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 120 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <3i0tdh$6g@jobe.shell.portal.com> References: <3hhtf4$sol@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3hltkq$f05@jobe.shell.portal.com> <3hr3al$h46@pentagon.io.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (TOKUS) NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.satanism:14813 alt.magick.tyagi:2167 talk.religion.misc:150261 alt.magick:38284 Kali Yuga 49950216 "Mr. Scratch" and kfilan@delphi.com continue their dialogue, I interrupt (;>): |>[Mr.Scratch] |> And I do know some pylons which have performed Black Masses and |> worked with some more "Satanic" imagery.... So you mean by 'Satanic' that imagery most commonly associated with it (i.e. by the wider, Christian culture), or what? |The recently-formed pylon in my area is considering a Black Mass as well, |altar and all. One member has proposed a black-Black Mass, in which we |do an anti-satanic working! It probably won't happen that way, but you |can imagine how it would look! Actually no. Do you think that 'Black' in this context (as compared to the use of this term to indicate a kind of manipulation, such as 'Lesser (or) Black Magic') means 'inversion'? And do you therefore mean that Black-Black Mass would be an inversion of typical 'Black Mass'? What *are* 'typical Black Masses' like, and what would an inversion of this look like (aside from a Roman Catholic Mass)? |[the ToS] vision still centers around the Prince of Darkness, whether he |is called Set or Satan. Sure, but Dr. Aquino and others have publically disclaimed the Christian Satan as a cartoon or political caricature. Thus what *you* mean by the 'Prince of Darkness' is either described very directly by you without resort to history or is in some way related to Set, and considering *only* this, your proper identifier would be alternatively 'Setian' or 'Xeperite', but not 'Satanist'. |We also place a great deal of focus upon the ego, including the |cultivation of healthy egoism This is something which the ToS and CoS seem to have in common. I isolate the characteristics of support of egotism and individualism within most or many Satanist orgs, as well as within most 'Thelemic' organizations. |and the egoic survival of bodily death (fundamental to Satanism in any form, False where I come from. I gather that some Satanists opt for what some would call 'cynical' ideas which place the ego as an epiphenomenon which dissolves upon bodily dissolution much as a film would cease to 'exist' when its projector disintegrates (i.e. very strict materialism). This lends further substance to the notion of individuality and to healthy egotistical and personal development -- no futuristic schemes, no reincarnation hopes, no goals beyond present indulgence and the realization of the perfection of life. |and something that would have placed us firmly in the camp of the Black |Brotherhood in Crowley's opinion). This is *very* interesting to me. I can see the value of this, though it seems a rather limited interpretation of Crowley's concepts. As I understand it, Crowley laid out the basic Hermetic/Rosicrucian scenario wrt the 'Crossing of the Abyss' in the QBL-ic progression, and appeared to denigrate what he protrayed as an alternative to it: stagnation and isolated disease within the Abyss for those who do not 'give of every drop of their blood to the Cup of Babalon', however one interpret this. Of course, some take the Cup of Babalon to be the Chalice of the Work of Society, one's giving of one's blood a dedication to (and dissolution into) the social machine rather than to oneself. The way that some interpret the Hermetic/Rosicross adventure, the Upper Triad (on the 'other side of the Abyss') may only be encountered after bodily death -- i.e. as a post-mortem accomplishment, rather than while bodily manifested. This appears to be the interpretation that you have described here, though taking instead the alternative Crowley described as belonging to the 'Fratribus Nigris' (in _Liber Aleph_, for example, and likely expanding more positively upon his words. What I'd like to point out here is that there is another way to understand both the Hermetic/Rosicross and Crowley-alternative progression (as an adventure which one may engage *during one's life*), and given this option one need not posit metaphysical complexities such as egoic survival of bodily death. See _Liber Nigris_, by Frater Nigris for more on this. |> 1) The "Satanic" label attracts more than its fair share of miscreants, |> misfits, and general maladjusted malodorous sorts.... |This is actually what I resent most about the satanic label. Being dumped |into a category with people I consider to be a waste of human meat.... It is always easier to put others down than to set an example of beauty and honor. I imagine that what I take to be a 'miscreant' or 'waste of human meat' today may tomorrow surprise me as part of the next infusion of Satanic genius. Appearances are too easily deceiving. |> ...The Church of Satan could rest secure in its position as "Princes |> of Hell," (or whatever) while the Temple of Set could get on with its |> business of being a serious magickal order in the tradition of the |> Golden Dawn, O.T.O., and A.A.. If this is indeed what it is. I gather that Mr.Scratch and others feel that it is more than this (a religion, for example, which excludes its members, as a basis of membership, from involving themselves with 'other religious organizations' (GD/OTO/AA do not do this to my knowledge). [feud-data omitted -- I've got so tired of it I omit even discussion such as yours (very loquatic! :>) from further dissemination] |...as long as the CoS presents it's attacks upon the ToS, we must |continue to make it uncomfortable and embarrassing for them. I think that this is an error on your parts, akin to 'rising to similar heights of idiocy' rather than 'remaining infernally awesome' by simply letting them spout their insanity and responding to direct questions. tyagi/TOKUS