To: coe@netcom.com (Church of Euthanasia) From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (boboroshi) Subject: Sodomous Intercourse (#1) References: Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US kaliyuga Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:21:28 -0700 (PDT) 49960606 (Aeon of the Adversary) Sodomous Intercourse (#1) _________________________ Heavily modified by Boboroshi (tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com) Introduction I see the Church favors sermons. I rarely find myself moved to this type of communication (DIScourse) and have always hated being talked AT about something. I glean more (even emotionally) from INTERcourse (sodomous!), and so provide an alternative form to your sermons derived from conversa- tions in IRC, a part of my personal outreach to the religious and occult community online in preparation for offline activities. _________________________________________________________________________ Participants (rendered anonymous) within channel #satanism:
(Boboroshi) - Kalifornica, US - Norway - Canada - Finland - Illannoy, US ----------------------------------- [enter: Df] Are you guys real satanists or what???
How can we tell? I think it can be pretty hard to figure out what is a 'Real Satanist' but I'd love to have your input. Why can't you know if you are a real satanist?
Because the only Satanism I know is my own, other than having read about some other people's. I notice there is a lot of variation. What is a satanist in your opinion then?
I'm not sure 'Satanist' can be explicitly defined. I think there are many ways to define it for oneself. Now as to 'what is Satanism', I think it varies tremendously. In Norway we have those who burn churches... Are you that kind?
Burning churches? You mean that they define themselves through their activity of destruction of religion? there are religious fanatics of various sorts. They also think that everybody has the right to kill.
That doesn't mean that they are representative of the ideals of their path. Yes, right.
The right to kill anyone? It could lead to some rather serious anarchic tendencies. I would personally oppose such violations. But that doesn't mean I disrespect them, and I urge them to make their religion into whatever form works for them. If they decide to become antisocial then I merely point out to them that in the long run it may be to their disadvantage. And I may support laws which restrict such things. Now as to 'what is Satanism', I think it varies tremendously. So basically, you are a libertarian?
I have not always seen my views adequately represented by Libertarians in terms of politics. My Church is the Church of Euthanasia. [enter Tt] So you guys believe in Satan!?
Tt, I am quite fond of Satan, yes. Br, well... what is Satan?!
Tt, to me, Satan is wild nature. You oppose violence, but you are fond of Satan???
Df, yes. Br, isn't that easy for people to misunderstand? I mean, people as large put a whole different idea into the word Satan.
Df, I think they are talking about the same thing yet they slander Satan horribly. And I don't see many supporting Satan. Br, Nature=Satan???
Tt, wild nature, yes. UNCONTROLLED by society and self. it is under attack by popular religion in the West. Br, so this means you want no law to control the animal instinct?
Tt, please rephrase. I am not sure what you mean. Br, when you are angry... you shout.. kill... fight.. when you want to have sex... you just jump on the first woman you see.
Tt, I do not promote my cause above that of others. You are talking about being totally engulfed by Satan. I think that a balance is valuable. How do you acheive the balance!?
Tt, by focussing on both discipline AND indulgence and looking carefully. I offer my service to the Darkness, to Satan, to wild nature. In part because these are under siege by ignorant humans. Satan is the Leader of the Underdog Rebellion. Br, do you subscribe to the views of Nietzsche? Br, consequences of each, so that means you are careful of some.
Df, I don't know enough about Nietzsche to be sure, but I like alot of what I hear so far, especially about herd-mentality. I'm unsure about this Ubermensch thing as yet. Many people have told me that what I write about and enjoy discussing has alot to do with Nietzsche. Some of my friends agree that alot of Satanic philosophy derives from Nietzsche's works, but as I am unstudied in that I cannot say. LaVey is often criticized or complimented by his apparent reference or association with Nietzsche, for example. There are others who take a different approach of course. But here's a URL on the man's philosophy. http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=Nietzsche [enter: M1] Br: well I think that philosophy is just one side of satanism.
M1, agreed completely. In fact I'd say intellectual things are perhaps a minor element of my own Satanism, though I use these as inspiration. I agree with you, on some points, but I don't see the connections between your views and the symbols you use.
Df, you have to get into the study of symbology to appreciate their meaning. Are there any particular symbols you'd like to discuss? Remember that some have used the term 'Satanism' to deride and castigate. All the symbols associated with it are not applicable to all Satanists. In fact it is possible that no two Satanisms are alike. Br: But you make it twice as hard to get your message through, using those symbols. Why use them then?
Df, is it a message? Perhaps Satanism is not an intent to persuade, not an intend to communicate an idea or tell other people something. Perhaps Satanism is a life path which is sufficient to itself. Perhaps this is what 'wild nature' truly is. Br, got your point there. But you unnecessarily get people opposed to you by using those symbols.
Df, then those people should detach themselves from needing to control other people's symbols and their meanings. Br, Satan for one. Personifying true evil.
Df, 'true evil'? What is that? Satan as a symbol? Ok. Not very explicit, but we can go with it. Satan the MYTHOLOGICAL IMAGE is often portrayed with animalistic characteristics. I.e. with horns, a tail, etc. Very important elements of wild nature. Usually very indulgent (sex, pleasures, anger, etc.). These are all found in the wild (what is left of it). Br, defining evil :) That's a hard one... Greed without limits, no compassion.
Df, I think you're talking about the nightmare of the Christian establishment. Satan as the purveyor of the Urban Legend of Satanism is usually not taken seriously by Satanists. Instead we co-opt the language in the same way that the establishment has co-opted language and rites for centuries. But that is what people put into the symbol of Satan.
Df, then they must have some fear to work out in doing that. Consider how what you are talking about relates to what some psychologists call 'the shadow'. It is that which is opposed, eshewed, repressed, pushed away. It comes back whether you like it or not (perhaps the lesson of the Inquisition and a future lesson humans will have to face, though I hope we're smarter). [interlude] Br, Wild Nature = Caos? No law, no rules?
Df, no law and no rules = anarchy. I tend to associate chaos and anarchy and Satan, yes. I personally find that 'chaos' merely means that we discern no pattern within it. I.e. we can't intellectually understand it. Br: yes and I have very troubled thoughts / feelings towards the whole idea of intellect. Br: Anarchy = the survival of the strongest, the most adaptive.
Df: Anarchy is a legitimate aspect of political studies. See: anarchosyndicalism (about which I have not studied enough). What you are describing is part of what was called 'evolution' by Darwin if I am not mistaken, and is not usually applied by Satanists I have known to politics except occasionally as 'Social Darwinism' (a wild concept). Recently I have been intensely studying chaos and chaos magick and more i begin to "see it as whole" ...the more I see that chaos itself is one law. The only real chaos as it is usually understood are the laws that are trying to define chaos. Br, Remember that Nietzsche was one of Hitlers favorite philosophers.
Df, and with good reason, but that doesn't mean that Hitler was one of Nietzsche's favorite politicians. ;> Br: True :) Df: It is fascinating how the most extreme anarchy seems to produce the most strictly organised organisations.. M1: Law of nature? Df: The laws that humen try to create.
M1, there is a wonderful mythological reference to chaos in the form of Tiamat. And Chaos is given reference in many scriptures as 'a darkened water'. Usually something representative of emotion (some in Chaos Magick equate 'gnosis' with passionate submersion in emotions). Br: I have to admit that my knowledge what comes to assyrian etc mythology is quite limited. I have studied it but not so that I could see clear meanings for any of the gods. They seem to change so much in different ages.
M1, my meaning is surface and general in regards Tiamat; i.e. a popular association with Her as the Mother of the Cosmos, Primordial Disorder. (which I tend to equate directly with Satan, wild nature) Br: In an anarchy, the strong will allways prey on the week ->
Df, I think that may be a fallacy, depending on how the anarchy arises. Df: hmm that makes sense. Br: Many animals live in the same way -> wild nature...
Df, some maintain that 'anarchy' merely means 'no rulers', for example, and that we can work our way to that without subjecting the weak to consistent violation. Br: i see. I believe there is no violation as long as hierarchy is clear enough for everyone who are part of it.
M1, nothing overt, no. But hierarchy may be a violation of our deepest instincts at a covert level. I see people supporting CONTROL, LAW, DOMINATION, and ORDER, for example. Plus most political systems tend toward change, and hierarchy places power in the hands of those who may not be ready for it. (as countless monarchies and oligarchies have demonstrated). Br: true Br: Subjecting the weak to violation -> law of the wild nature...
Df, I think there is much more to wilderness than such domination. a study of the natural world indicates to me that it is a consistent system which aids every part of the whole. what we are doing is merely identifying with the predator, as usual. And with our continued multiplication, we are doing more damage to the wild nature outside ourselves, which gives us sustenance, than any natural predator might otherwise inflict. I.e. our OWN wild nature is out of control, but in subtle ways. 1) reproduction; 2) dominating through force, etc. I often feel that Satan is a personification of change (and other). Could satanism ever be a major "religion" in a nation-sized society?
M1, depends alot on what you mean by 'Satanism'. There is a Satanism for every individual. Equivalent to asking perhaps if anarchy is possible for large areas. Br: I mean ethics and ideology mostly based on symbolism of Satan.
M1, I think it may be possible, but not without serious study of ourselves and how it might work. I have not yet attended this study (of how anarchy could be instituted, which sounds like a contradiction). But I am gathering data for it. Br: If there was a satanic nation would there be anything so special with it?
Yes. Its citizens would be completely free. In some ways what you describe may be the ultimate form of what the founders of the US had in mind. Though some things (like majority rule) would have to be subtly changed. Unfortunately I have only recently begun a study of political things. Actually I think animals tend to work for themselves. My main research has been in mysticism, magick, psychology and philosophy, so I'm not sure how well I can defend anarchy as a political ideal. but here's a URL which I particularly enjoy: http://www.duke.edu/~eagle/anarchy/ Br: like u mentioned before animals tend to work for the whole nature.. in these times of rapid destruction of nature that would mean very radical actions.. like a strong satanic society? I think most of the nations are based on the same values :)
M1, But other animals are not dissuaded from being PART of that nature, which is in some ways the problem with 'civilization' and establishment religion (God vs Nature is the norm, and we are often presumed alien 'spirit' indwelling in flesh). Br: yes on invidual level they work for themselves, but it is natural that they work for the whole without understanding it (in labels) is true.
M1, Exactly, just as described in some way within _Tao Teh Ching_. The leaders are hidden, unknown. The people well-fed, slow of mind. Br: I must say that in many ways I agree with some of your points. I am also attracted to the idea of freedom. However, I must say that your opinions, as far as I can see, are something VERY different from what we use to call satanists in my country. In Norway they are the people who burn churches, kills and rapes. I cannot see how your satanism can be compatible whith their's... Df: ah.. that is not satanism.
Df, perhaps if you see their actions as a symptom of their yearning to express their wild nature. If they describe THEMSELVES as Satanists, then we may find value in trying to understand them rather than merely condemning them. Df: the ones who burn churches in Norway etc. dont even call themselves satanists.. they are anti-satanists
M1, I do not say what is Satanism for others. This is why I tend to question and oppose the notion of 'Real Satanism'. I tend to presume that whatever someone says of themselves (in labels) is true. Thus if you tell me that your Satanism includes burning churches then I want to know how this fits in with your practice. I see the value of directly opposing religious establishment, for example. Br: I agree 100% Br: point taken, but these people calls themselves satanists.
Df, then I ally with them in their practices even if I may oppose their methods. There are people whose Satanism I don't understand and which I oppose. Some associate directly with genocide, for example. I do not, and wish to oppose them, even while I support a reduction in human population. Df: as far as I know they dont call themselves satanists. M1: In Norway, they do... Df: no I know this thing. I namely speak about Norway. They see themselves as true norwegians, as vikings who are fighting christianity (and satanism) off from Norway.
M1, I can see the value in that, though I would not personally associate with their methods if violent. Br: I dont personally associate with them either. :) it is basicly just Black Metal movement. kids burning churches etc. the movement is here in Finland too so I wont say anything positive about them in public media like this. ;)
Compare: environmentalism and the range of actions taken, from polite outreach to Earth First! revolutionaries to Church of Euthanasia Dada Activism. I associate with those Satanists in NAME, and I am happy to do so. Especially as it represents what THEY think of as Satanism. I locate the definition of Satanism within the INDIVIDUAL. It is like Voltaire. I support their will even while I may oppose them in the field. A Chivalry of sorts. I think this may well be a prime element of Satanic practice. I'm often the intermediary between religious fanatics, for example. [interlude; enter: Sy]
Satanism varies considerably. I can only speak about my own. What is satanic practice?
It varies for each Satanist, I suppose. Ah so what is satanism? explain yourself.
Satanism varies considerably. I can only speak about my own. So speak about your own.
For me Satanism includes my support of Satan in the opposition to our enemies. I am only now setting about determining who this enemy is, though I have located the fronts of the battle in the Four Pillars of my Church. You have so many enemies?
There does appear to be a huge war on, yes. How does your practice help you to defeat your enemies?
My objective is not to defeat my enemies so much as love them, and this first requires a peace settlement. The Four Pillars are the terms of such a peace settlement. The means of combat is something I'm only now creating, but I'm using the Internet to outreach and formalize my approach. I can describe each of the Four Pillars of the Church, if you like. Yes please describe the four pillars.
In brief: Abortion: access and encouragement of abortion to all humans. Cannibalism: those who insist on eating meat, eat human flesh. Suicide: access and encouragement of suicide to all humans. Sodomy: encouraging all forms of sexuality which do not lead to procreation. So how much do you master this satanism?
Mastery is achieved through self-empowerment and expression of passion in ways which convey its meaning (often arational). How do you achieve the self empowerment?
Self-empowerment is achieved in different ways depending on the conditions of the self. Often through challenging social taboos. So how do you practically achieve this.
Usually through encouraging questioning authority and restriction of energies for their refinement. That is, philosophy, reflection, and ascetic rigor, combined with a dedicated value toward hedonism. So how do u get to be a master satanist?
Master Satanists are full-fledged warriors for the Four Pillars as I see it. Also, we abide by the One Commandment: Thou shalt not procreate. So how do u spend your everyday life?
I spend my life doing very little presently, having recently moved from a mostly educative period into association with the Church, for which I'm now networking online, and soon off. I also keep a temple here for Kali, and will soon be making a blood pact with Satan signing away my entirety for the satiation of my every desire in exchange for my service in oppoition to Hir enemies. I also have taken up black robes, have eshewed automobiles, have begun serious vegetarianism and am experimenting with different forms of community and religion.
You ask great questions, Sy, may I quote this converation to my Church? What good would come from that?
The good which can come from quoting this conversation to my Church is that its content may be placed within the Church periodical: Snuff It, and many people may be inspired. Why would you sign away for satiation of all of your desires?
I figure I'm headed back into the wild nature anyway, don't believe in some sort of 'spirit world', seeing all this religion stuff as metaphorical ultimately of material and psychological concerns or quite meaningless otherwise, and would put forth a great deal of energy toward the cause of Satan. If my desires are somehow satiated, then I will have less impact upon Satan. I thought satanism is a religion. Why do you need to try other forms of community and religion? I thought you got your fulfullment from satanism, so why you need more?
I find myself at odds with my community and the religions with which I've had interaction, even while I appreciate the information available within those structures and have gleaned what I could from them before moving on to my own form of worship, works and community. In many ways I may become a sort of bridge amongst religious traditions due to not really residing within any completely but seeing the value of their practice (especially if they become incubative structures from within which Satanism such as my own may arise). [communication link broken; sodomous intercourse #1 ends] copyright boboroshi 1996 tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com