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From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (mordred)
Newsgroups: alt.satanism,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.evil
Subject: Teen Satanism (Was Re: Embarrassing Satanism (Was Re: ...)
Date: 20 Mar 1995 12:50:15 -0800
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Kali Yuga 49950320


"A.J.Brush" <A.J.Brush@ncl.ac.uk> quotes me and writes:

|>|Do you really see graveyard vandals as making a political statement
|>|against the church and state?

|>No, much more sincere.  They are engaging a rebellious religious rite.

|And if they were to kick in a bus shelter instead would that be a
|religious rite also? Why stop there? Maybe you could, ahem, explore 
|your spirituality by ripping a phonebox apart!? (I know he's going to
|agree with it... I just know it... Yikes!)

I don't think that busses or phones play a very major part in religions, no.


|>|A bitter rejection of the repressive authoritative controls denying
|>|them their much needed psycho-transformative rites to explore the
|>|depths of their psyches and their "spirituality"? (!)

|>Precisely.  :>

|Naa, I was only kidding. I don't think anyone reached their "hidden
|depths" or what have you by kicking a headstone over. Do you?

They might, yes.  When the dead are covered over and hidden, tearing
up the covers can sometimes be very intense.


|>Actually, I don't judge their motives and this is my point entirely.

|Well make your bloody mind up! A minute ago they were engaging in
|religious rites!

I mean that I don't say whether it is right or wrong, not that I don't
*interpret* or *hypothesize* motive, just that I don't judge them.


|>I think it is enough to try to understand why their actions may be valuable
|>to them and that perhaps co-opting that behavior in ritual manners may
|>harness it while diffusing it within society as a whole.

|Ok. What, if anything, is the value of such actions? 

Great question!  We'd do best to define which behaviors we're discussing.
I'll take those you mention.


|...a [cemetery] really doesn't represent a dominant, authoritative force, 

Actually, it is the symbol of modern repression of the death-experience.
Destroying cemeteries is of course an illegal activity.  However, consider
that that land might also be used for the living.  Based upon the foundation
of ownership and the theoretical notion that we *need* to put dead bodies
in boxes and mark them (sometimes as shrines for limited forms of spirit
or ancestor-worship), I think it may be valuable to politically oppose this,
especially when it is a REQUIREMENT (as compared to cremation grounds, for
example, or wilderness abandonments, or ocean plunges).

Now, what is the value of this activity and how could it be incorporated
into Satanic rites such that society could accept it?  (I'd love to hear
other speculation on this, since I'm only beginning to think of it.)

Well, it seems to me that part of the value is in challenging the notion
of 'spirits' to begin with.  To challenge the notion of an 'afterlife',
and the value of 'paying respects' to the dead is likely very important.
Knocking over a gravestone is a very direct ego-challenge.  Why don't we
bury the dead in mass-graves where everyone comes to pray or chuck flowers
or whatever??  They engage a personal rejection of death (or at *least* its
paralizing fear) which is quite intimidating to the minds of adolescents
who feel invincible and invulnerable).  It is like when the hero in the
horror film bashes the Evil Meanie between the chops with a shotgun!  Wow!
Yes, get him!  The psychological experience of such things (*doing* them,
not just watching someone doing it) could be transformative.

This specific activity may align rather nicely with Christian notions of 
the afterlife.  After all, if one is a 'True Christian' who has been 
'saved', then a grave is only necessary for those who remain behind, 
and perhaps not even a grave-marker.  Those who believe in the 
omniscience of God could do anything with the body and God would 
resurrect it 'as promised'.

Perhaps the best ritual incorporation would be 'challenging the dead' or
'playing domination of wills with spirits'.  This is shown in very many
magical and mystical systems, especially those linked with the JCI. 
Tossing a gravestone down is a direct challenge to the departed.  "C'mon
mother fucker, I want to have a direct interaction with you!"  The teen
is engaging a scientific experiment of immense purportions.  


|(they's all dead, for Chrissakes!) there really is no point in defying 
|it a la Black Mass. To me it would be more like pissing in my own bath tub.

'Defying' it?  You mean the authoritarian force of the cemetery?  Well, if
you associate that force with society which guards it, I'd tend to agree.
However, if a teen actually wishes to defy the SPIRITS, the DEAD, then I
think there may be very many good reasons to do this.  One would be to
test out one's will, one's magical abilities, one's ability to resist
being dominated and 'beat up' by spirits, perhaps even to orient oneself
with respect to the realms living and nonliving (cf. 'Ouija' and seances).

It is also a projection of the body-spirit split so prevalent within JCI
cultures.  The teen says "there is no spirit!  there is only the body!
show me this spirit if there is one!"  

A Black Mass has many meanings to many people, and when you start to
speak of very specific rights in the graveyard I note that with the
exception of BURIALS, these are forbidden, considered 'disturbing the
dead'.  I think it would be of benefit to challenge (LEGALLY) this
restriction of our populace around such places, claiming that we wish to
interact with the dead plane and that cemeteries are one of the few which 
allow such a strong connection.

I'm not sure I truly understand the ramifications of the Black Mass as
portrayed by popular accounts.  I gather that they are often seen as
inversions of Christianity.  This could be very psychotransformative
in breaking the ties which the Christian establishment has upon the
individual (through early programming and emotional manipulation).

A Black Mass in a cemetery would break the traditional exclusion of rites
from it, thereby entering into a NEW type of spirituality previously
forbidden.  Engaging forbidden activities like this (even if there was
not any vandalism) could be a very important practice.  I can see the
value of opposing the mind-control and allowing rites to occur in
cemeteries just as one would in public park.  Perhaps an initial start
on this front would be to specify very specifically that within my
religion I must interact with the dead AT NIGHT, then I could go to the
cemetery administration and request that I be allowed limited and pre-
arranged access for my religious rite.


|>I've been to many graveyards at night, occasionally on my own, often with
|>friends.  It wasn't too hard to get in.  So?

|When you were on about the repressive controls, I thought you meant on
|access, not the fact that there aren't corpses lying around, kinda
|rotting in public. (Is that what you mean?) Kick over all the head
|stones you want if you think it'll change things.

I think both points are valuable.  There are repressive controls on the
nature of activities which can be performed in cemeteries.  Dress up in
black robes, go out with some candles and incense and a ritual dagger.
Go to a graveyard.  Now first off, graveyards are CLOSED AT NIGHT.  This
is the best time to contact the spirits, according to many occultists.
Second, you will not be allowed to conduct this ceremony, since it will
'disturb the (Christian) visitors'.  Third, we are REQUIRED TO BURY OUR
DEAD IN CEMETERIES! (or have them cremated).

This sets up a fairly oppressive and controlled environment in which we
are not allowed to conduct certain spiritualist rituals among the dead,
are separated from the dead, and can never legally enter into the 'Realm
of the Dead' at night.  Consider this carefully, along with its reper-
cussions on our daily life.


|>That wasn't quite the same
|>as sitting in a cremation ground amidst the corpses.  Cf India/Tibetan
|>monks.

|I bet. Is this relevant to the point about vandalism?

It is if the teens really get going and start digging up graves.


|...Defending mindless vandalism is detrimental to the cause of Satanism, 
|and rather pointless too. 

I'm actually not defending 'mindless vandalism'.  I'm saying that we ought
to look at what is CALLED 'mindless vandalism' more closely, especially
when the individuals call themselves 'Satanists' and perform what they
think is something important in cemeteries or out.

I'm not sure what criteria should be used to determine what is 'detrimental'
to 'the cause of Satanism'.  How do you determine this and how do you know
what behavior/activity is or isn't qualified for this assessment?


|It's a burden to fight for, and there's nothing to be gained in it. 

I'm not recommending that we attempt to support it legally.  I'm saying
that we ought not engage in outright condemnation and should look at
what is leading to these activities, perhaps incorporating their most
transformative elements within less dangerous rites/disciplines.  Same
goes for ritual psychoactive use and other illegal things.


|You're hurting yourself indirectly by sticking up for types that 
|aren't worthy of it, and more than likely wouldn't care.

I'm not hurting myself at all.  By identifying as a Satanist I'm 'hurting
myself' in this silly way of thinking, since 'Satanism' is largely 
identified with the Urban Legend of Satanism.  Bah, if I was to react to
'whether or not I tarnish my public image' in my speaking, then I'd likely
just become another prog and begin the Great Condemnation, completely
co-opted by the establishment into disempowerment, which I feel you are
assisting by your assertion above.

It is much like "I'm sorry, but we know best what is 'good' for your body
and mind, so we're going to make these things illegal for *your own good*."
Dream on.

I'm not saying that what these people are doing should be made legal.  I'm
saying that people who just criticize it without understanding it fully are
most of the problem.  It is far more important to me to ADMIT THAT SOME
SATANISTS DO THINGS WHICH ARE CONTRARY TO THE LAW than to conform once more
to the State just so we won't have a 'bad image'.

Compare this with people who claim that Sadomasochism or Homosexuality are
'illnesses'.  Without engaging these activities oneself it is quite difficult
to know what the motivations are.  Condemning these things is plain stupid
and causes the psychosis of ordinary American life.  

Why should religion always support the State?  The state doesn't often
support freedom of religion.  Why shouldn't people who claim to be Satanists
and do illegal activities be accepted for who they are -- counter-cultural
types who are taking chances and (perhaps) engaging political and/or
psychotransformative rites which are important to them?  Blanket-comndemna-
tion is the tool of the establishment.  By joining in it you are only
co-opting the very foundations of Satanism out form under it.
 

|>|Neither you, nor any of the rest of us need this false image of
|>|Satanism being spread any further.

|>Oooooooo, 'false image of Satanism'.  Perhaps if you learned a bit more about
|>these 'false images' you'd discover an entire Left-handed path under your
|>nose.

|Since graveyard desecration is not generally done by Satanists, the
|image it has that this is the case or the ideal is false. So what's
|the point inviting more grief?

You are arbitrarily identifying who is and who isn't a Satanist here.
How many of the people engaging this activity *identified as Satanists*?
Whatever people do in the name of Satanism *is* Satanism.  Your squeals
to the contrary only make your form of Satanism OPPRESSIVE and STUPID.

tyagi/TOKUS
tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (NocTifer)
______________________________________

"...those who surround themselves with darkness and speak most of death
 are probably the most life-loving of all....  we keep our death close
 to us; we don't cushion and insulate ourselves from reality.  Satanists
 keep constant reminders of our own mortality around, *momentos mori*,
 to spur us to enjoy each moment as if it were our last."

Anton LaVey