From server@firefly.prairienet.org Sun Feb 5 14:50:23 1995 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (root@nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id OAA10703 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 14:50:22 -0800 Received: from argus.cso.uiuc.edu (argus.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.58]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id OAA01599 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 14:50:20 -0800 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (server@firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by argus.cso.uiuc.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA67376; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 16:50:00 -0600 Received: by firefly.prairienet.org (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10455; Sun, 5 Feb 95 16:49:47 CST Date: Sun, 5 Feb 95 16:49:47 CST Message-Id: <199502052029.MAA18147@jobe.shell.portal.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com Originator: wolf@prairienet.org Sender: wolf@prairienet.org Precedence: bulk From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (NocTifer) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: CoSatanism, Trapezoids and Herd Mentality X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Grotto of the Wolf list Status: RO Kali Yuga 49950205 |From: lydia gage <75352.3273@compuserve.com> |Date: Sat, 28 Jan 95 16:13:35 CST |...I now feel you are sincere in your efforts, and will stay away |from such unpleasantness in the future. I am happy to discuss |Satanism, LaVeyan style, with those who are truly interested. Thanks! I'm doing my best. I think I have issues about groups and my participation, and mayhaps this is what Star9 was alluding to when he spoke of snakes and hot buttons. Then again, perhaps he was alluding to some sort of orgiastic tendency of mine. ;> |>I believe nothing and nobody, | |...Surely you believe (trust) yourself, Oh, if you mean 'trust', then of course I do. I was referring to the presumption that any particular idea or person was indicative of truth. I don't think that particular ideas or people contain that for me. |and must have some set beliefs which you find to be factual. False. I have found this to be inhibitory to my path, so I abandoned it. |Like, for example, the fact that water consists of H2O . . . It is a convention of materialists. Within certain paradigms this is true. Beyond them it is utter nonsense. |Well, seeing as how I think just about everyone that subscribes to |the wolf list are all members of the Church of Satan, we do not get |too many inquires on the administration and it's goings-on, so I |was cautious of you. Ah, I see. I did not know that this was the makeup of the list. I see that I am the odd-out invader and will be more circumspect in my ravings. ;> |...membership is open to anyone. Fill out the form, send in your |fee and you're a member. Yes, I've lost the form I received, but I may reconstruct one (anybody know what the contents of that form are?), especially if my tax return yields sufficient extraneous bounty so as to make this possible. |...not everyone has the skill to represent something in a positive and |friendly fashion. For sure. |...I am gaining control as I continue my debates, so bear with me. :-] Of course! I presume that everyone has emotions and sometimes expresses these fitfully! Especially in response to my niggling elf-ways. Those who hold onto it forever are the ones I find difficult. You are real, human and honest, and I admire this. |>|...I feel that the Satanists I choose to associate with have |>|very similar ethics and beliefs. | |>why [do] you find it valuable to associate with those who have |>similar ethics and beliefs. | |If I had my way, the only people I would have to deal with in life |would be others that share my views. Wow, wouldn't it be sort of boring? Everyone would be agreeing about everything and there'd be no interesting diversity of thought. |overall, Satanists like their space. I hear you. This is some of the individualism which I was trying to point out elsewhere. I am similar in my distance to people, though mostly it is respect which I favor among friends, not similarity of opinion. |>How would you differentiate this from engaging 'herd mentality'? |...I enjoy my contact with my like-minded friends, and loath contact |with the everyday herd. So you don't think that a 'herd mentality' could develop within your group of friends or within the Church of Satan? It sounds like you associate 'herd mentality' with certain concepts and activities. Yes? |...After all, the Jehovah's Witnesses are just loads of fun when they |venture onto my dark doorstep. Funny, they never do come back for |that second visit . . . Interesting you mention this. I have been hosting a JW on a regular basis and gradually exposing him to the House of Kaos. He'd been in to see the (mostly conventional) living room and talk about his holy scripture and his life. This week I gave him a tour of the whole house, including the temple and library. I told him that I wanted him to know more about me if we were going to be friends. He's a very special man, quite respectful and accepting. Remember, I wear black robes, do not hold my tongue around him and he has listened fairly well when he wasn't talking. Well this time I mentioned also that I wished there to be more parity in our conversation and that if he wished to read from books that would be fine but that I would select one from the Haus library to read to add some spice. Of course I selected the SB, which I've been carefully digesting again for the purposes of understanding the Church, and after he had cited his scripture 5 times I got up the nerve to read from the SB (44-5) in response. He was quite amiable on the whole and we discussed Satan and evil and stayed some distance from trying to get a more varied understanding than his own regarding the Prince of Darkness. I have a feeling he won't be back, though I'd welcome him here. |:...what I don't know is how the Magistrate level relates to |:the Priesthood and the Council and what 'Magistra' means to the |:organization as a whole. | |Magistrate is above priesthoods, but under the High Priest and High |Priestess. Ok, but what is the relation between Magistrate and Council? Are the Magistrae the (9?) councilmembers? If so, that would create a type of trapezoid if the High Priest didn't have absolute authority: ----- Council of Nine (Magistrate) ---- / \ / Priesthood /\-(High Priest in Mag) \ / \ / ^ \ / | \ / v etc. \ / \ /________________Registered Members___________________\ Though the Council is less expansive than the inclusive Registered. It still looks like a pyramid to me, or perhaps something like the CAW/OOD 'circle' schema, since all the various levels may be concentric. |...The ToS simply doesn't cut it for me because they worship and |believe in Set, something I could never do. Oh I'll bet you could, given the rather particular meaning that they at times have for that (largely a feature of the willful self). |And, they also only allow certain information to certain titles, |which I strongly dislike. I gather that they discuss anything with anyone, but only after one has demonstrated that one is serious about the inquiry. This is the same as CoS. The restriction is that *entire documents* are not extended beyond the designated audience for them. The information within them is absolutely unrestricted, though not specifically distributed. |If I can't know up-front about an organization and it's "party-line," |I want nothing to do with it then. I think that this is why they have a trial membership of 2 years. It is perhaps similar to the OTO's Associate Membership or even the lack of permanent commitment of the Minerval (0') degree. |The ToS reminds me of Scientology wherein one also acquires knowledge |as one attains levels. Only difference is that in Scientology, you |must also purchase this information. The same could be said of most social groups, including the CoS, though in none of these (perhaps excepting Scientology) is the structure specifically restrictive toward this end. Naturally humans share infor- mation with those whom we feel safe in so doing (and whom we think will appreciate it). One thing that I don't like about the ToS is that the fee of passage for membership is ongoing, and this is, to me, a definite advantage of the CoS -- it costs less to investigate, at least formally. One can of course just 'hang around' with the membership of any org and usually discover all the cultural information and occulted data through osmosis and gained trust. I've known people who've done this with ToS and OTO, for example, never becoming official members. |...More insight may be had by reading the reviews of our work which |should appear in the soon-to-be-out Black Flame. Also, I might have |an article in this issue of TBF, as might my partner-in-crime, Ken Gage. |I am currently writing a non-fiction book that deals with my |experiences in teaching Satanic Philosophy to my children. Again, this demonstrates your familiarity with *Satanism*, not with the CoS administration. |How all that relates to my correspondence with Peter Gilmore, Peggy |Nadramia, Blanche Barton and Dr. LaVey, I'm not too sure. Now *this* is more like it. So you have been corresponding with these people for some time? Have you ever met any of them offline, formed practical or business relationships with them, scheduled regular meetings, etc.? Else how could you determine that the CoS admin is so reliable and above-board? |Your best bet would be to pick up the next issue of The Black Flame, |and read our reviews. I think that says much for the amiability of your relationship indeed, though not necessarily for your own exposure to the administrative structure, which was what I asked about in response to claims you made about its quality. |...all Satanists are manipulative and a tad bit "sneaky." That is |considered a positive trait. Very interesting. What about manipulativeness and sneakiness do you think is attractive to Satanists, generally? Is it a kind of sadism, cabal-orientation, or love of mystery? |N>:That is, it is an autocracy or oligarchy. |Well, yes, it is an autocracy, but, to an extent. What I mean is, |yes, pretty much what Dr. LaVey says goes, but he is not an irate, |irrational leader. He is wise enough to know that knowledge and |ideas may well come from under him, and he is willing to consider |what others suggest. How do you reconcile this with the claims that the CoS is formed in the shape of a trapezoid, flat on the top and bottom? Have you ever heard this before? Are you familiar with the Trapezoidal Metaphysics and all of LaVey's speculations on this? (There is some in DN I read recently). I've also seen in my files Aquino's mention of a 'trapezohedron', which would probably fit more exactly the relationship between the org and LaVey. A trapezohedron is a crystal form having all faces trapeziums. Isn't that interesting? That might be a pointer to at least one of the significances behind 'Crystal Tablets of Set', though of course this probably doesn't translate to CoS. I am beginning to notice that the ToS and CoS don't have very many structural differences. Even the titles of the various organizational levels (Priest/ess, Order of Trapezoid, etc.) appear to be identical. For those who would like to know what a trapezium is, I'll draw one for you: /~-_ / ~-_ / ~-_ / \ / \ /________________\ >From my alternative Bible (Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dict -- '92): 1. *Geom.* a. (In Euclidean geometry) any rectilinear quadrilateral plane figure not a parallelogram. b. a quadrilateral plane figure of which no two sides are parallel. c. *Brit.* trapezoid (def. 1a). 2. *Anat.* the greater multangular [wrist] bone.... [< NL < Gk *trapezion* kind of quadrilateral, lit., small table, equiv. to *trapez(a)* table (aph. var. of **trapeza* object having four feet, equiv. to *tetra-* four + *peza* foot) + *-ion* dim. suffix].... ---------- Very lovely, no? I think I'm beginning to see why LaVey calls the shots and yet is not the top of a 'pyramid'. He may well be the top of a trapezohedron, a pyramid that has had the top sliced off askew If this is the case, then the CoS *is* actually 'flat on the top and bottom', though I'm not sure how an absolute ruler can be said not to be the top of the alternative pyramid. LaVey *has* to have restraints placed upon him (even by himself, perhaps in that he must consult the Council or something) if it is to be a true trapezohedron. Fun. |...many feel that an autocracy can do no good, when, in actuality, |what matters is who is sitting on the "throne." I think this is rather simplistic. Organizational structures have quite intense effects upon the 'feel' of membership, and I tend to think that pyramids are somewhat outmoded, as LaVey himself has often written. |...it was Dr. Anton LaVey who founded the Church, There is a very interesting story told by Michael Aquino wrt a man whose name I cannot now recall that claimed to have been among a number of others who designed the idea of the Church, which LaVey thereafter promoted and founded. Know anything about these early beginnings? |...by using Dr. LaVey's work as an additional guide. What other works do you use as your guides? NocTifer tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com