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From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (lorax)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.satanism,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.all-worlds,alt.religion,talk.religion.newage,talk.religion.misc,alt.consumers,alt.individualism,talk.euthanasia,talk.environment,sci.bio.environment,sci.skeptic
Subject: Honoring the Earth, Satanism and Paganism (was Satanist/NeoPagan War)
Date: 15 Jun 1996 12:59:25 -0700
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kaliyuga
49960615 AA1 Nulatix!  (JIHAD! :>)


jrmurphy@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jana R Murphy):
|>...These discussions are basically about the right of NeoPagans to define 
|>their own religion, 

no, you are defining Satanism.  unless you've changed which religion is
your own or you somehow see that Neopaganism is INTERNAL to Satanism
(which I contend, though I don't expect you'll agree), then you may wish
to rethink this.


|>and the right of who we do and do not want to associate with.

you don't have that now?  can't idiot Neopagans be restricted from your
club meetings?  when someone who is harmful, disrespectful and 'evul'
shows up at your society affairs do you slink quietly into your corner
and grumble "damn!  if only these people were Satanists, we could ask
them to LEAVE!"  no, I bet not.


Xina <xina@netins.net>:
|...All you people 'playing in the Light of the God/dess' get to decide 
|who gets to play on the dippy hippy dead head playground of neo-paganism!  
|Yay!!  

in their playground, yes.  I think this is very important.  unfortunately
for Neopaganism people appear to think that playground and play are the
same thing.  i.e. that the entirety of 'Neopaganism' must have absolute
limitations so as to prevent from associating with or being exposed to
certain rumored nasty bits.  it is a type of default cultural definition
which excludes variety, eclecticism and diversity and may be the death
of Neopaganism as a religious movement.  it originates within the 
Christian establishment as a means of converting and condemnation.  
I urge you to see this and desist from it immediately.


|>I for one, do not want any association with satanists.  
|>I have an informed opinion on the issue.

will all people with informed positions on the issue please voice them?
we might learn something from you.


|...American COS/TOS Satanism, or are we talking about something a 
|*little* more expansive [?]

I gather that these are only the ORGANIZED varieties.  how many different
organized varieties of Neopaganism are there?  how do these organizations
compare as regards their political and social structures?

you have an informed opinion.  please do not hide from my questions!


|>...the Pagans I know and associate with, all feel as I do.

wonderful!  please take your Neopagan practices, carefully designating
its bigotted and uninformed restrictions, and guard it, placing all
manner of definitions on who is Neopagan and who is not and make this
known to all who approach you.  

in this way Real Neopagans will know which they prefer. ;>


|>From my conversations with other Pagans and from my own personal 
|>experience, I have formed a very unflattering picture of satanists. 

very well, and if you do this is important to know!  so tell us a little
about why you think that your personal experiences are representative of 
the whole of either Neopaganism or Satanism.


[Xina again]
|...I will bet my entirer years salary they are *ALL* American Pagans 
|and American Satanists too! 

not that important, unless you are saying there is a trend. ;>  it is
quite likely that those Neopagans who arrive from the Bible Belt and
similarly restrictive environs would retain some of their exclusivist
and other-defining ways.  if you find this entertaining, you have alot
of fun ahead of you! ;>


|>They are self-serving, pompous, deceitful, disruptive and hateful 
|>towards others.  They disregard morals

|...the persons that I know who are Satanists in Europe have more morals 
|than most PSG attendees!  

'morals' in this sense is ambiguous but we may discern that what you
are talking about is your own idea of what correct or 'Neopagan'
*ethics* truly are.  it is also likely that most Satanists and Neopagans
(and Western religious generally) have not seen their way to escape the
clutches of religious moralism (where we hear and proselytize the true
and perfect behaviors and actions and attitudes).


|...The Euopean Satanists I know tend to be vastly more selective as 
|lovers, are better read and certainly wear less tie-dye, bad jewelry 
|and in many cases much better personal hiegene!!  

now we get to hear what are 'morals' for Xina (or those Xina seeks to
illustrate with this comparison).  Choosiness where sex is concerned
(rather than promiscuity, a harkening to calls of 'fornicator!'),
literateness (esp. emphasized in Usenet), connection to adornment and
mythic themes which are less 'rainbow'-oriented (I presume the 
preference overall in Satanists society is for black and red), and
certain hygeine considerations (again a symptom of slavery to the
public and group) are apparently marked differences Xina perceives.


|Am I accusing all neo pagans of being as moral-less or unkempt folks 
|with taste in clothing up their back sides? Certainly not! But your 
|sweeping generalizations are just as bad !

note that Xina trivializes the points made by Jana in that the latter
is likely talking about more serious things than unkempt appearances
and promiscuity.  Jana appears to have accepted a more conservative
Neopagan path, and presumes many things about Satanists as a group,
apparently based on her limited experience.  

while she did not really say what constitutes a 'lack of morals', 
perhaps we may explore along typical Neopagan thought-lines and assert 
that she may be afraid that Satanists would hurt her (just as many 
Christians fear being hurt by Witches and Satanists generally), or her 
family or friends, that they would be sociopaths or social nuisances.  

Compare all this to the sterotypes and I think you'll find they fall 
right in light, a pattern of paranoia which is easily identified and 
dispensed with (from my rather utilitarian approach :>).

of course if Jana tells us a bit more about the Satanists she's met
or why she thinks of them in these stereotypical ways, perhaps we
might discover something about Satanists, the Urban Legend of Satanism
or about Neopagans (or just about Jana! ;>).

 
|>...On the surface some [Satanists] can appear charming and smooth, 
|>but they give off bad vibes.  I don't trust them and never will.

so it sounds as if you have been uncomfortable in the presence of
some Satanists (received 'bad vibes', which I suppose is both purely
subjective and rather incontestable) and decided for yourself what
types of limitations you'd like to set up.  very good.

now the question to ask yourself is: DO YOU WISH TO LEGISLATE YOUR
TASTES AND LIMITATIONS SO AS TO RESTRICT ALL OTHER NEOPAGANS?
for that is how your remarks strike me so far -- you want to DEFINE
Neopaganism such that Satanists can never be involved (with you).


|>I do think there is EVIL and GOOD in the world (and the concept of 
|>GOOD/EVIL...).  There is absolutely NOTHING in the Universe that is 
|>ultimately "good" or "evil".  It just IS!  It is nature.  That is 
|>ALL that it is! 

it sounds as if your ideas of good and evil are a bit mixed.  that's
fine.  it is good to write of these things and come to greater coherence.
perhaps you can continue it in 'alt.magick.ethics' or some atheist forum
where such things are quite popular among recovering Christians.


|>What attracted me to Paganism was it's connection to Nature, the 
|>Goddess, to Magick, to the wonder of the world around us, to making 
|>this planet better for -all- creatures, to strive for the -best- in 
|>humankind, 

that's funny, as it is led me to my Satanism.  now what?


|>the lack of the concept of that "original sin" crap 

absolutely.  most Satanists throw that out from the first.


|>and as long as you don't hurt anyone, go ahead do it.

here is the place where I feel that Xina and Jana differ most -- in
the area of presumed ethics and Redes.  I suspect that Jana is used
to a social milieu in which Laws and Redes and Guidelines are very
much cherished, especially those which advocate not harming others.

perhaps Jana feels that Satanists do not have the same ethics or
values as she and so generalizes that all Satanists are dangerous.
I agree with Jana strongly.  I think that many Satanists are quite
dangerous and likely to not respect any sort of rules or laws.  some
do appreciate guidelines, some don't.  

I DON'T agree with Jana that by excluding Satanists from Neopaganism
she makes herself more SAFE!  I find that Satanists have different
values as regards restricting of themselves and yet often have very
strong feelings about the same values which Jana has implied!

I think these values are instilled in our society and in some measure
as the Satanist explores them and discovers why they are there it
is quite possible that some of the immature will trespass her boundaries
("harming" her, as she likely perceives it).  

what Jana might NOT discover until too late is that many Neopagans are
exploring these boundaries ANYWAY, and eventually, despite the social
repercussions of the rules and laws, people will invade and trespass
and be rude (teens and especially children, who are the most Satanic)
even while they may not identify as 'Satanists'.  it is also possible
that ACCEPTING Satanists and combating their apparent rudeness may
'increase the health of the herd'.


|...some of the neo-pagans honour the earth.  

I don't know what this means.  so far it appears to mean 'pay our
respects to the violence we're doing to Mom.' ("thanks for the laughs!")

I don't see lifestyle care in the local Neopagan community (haven't 
looked for a while, tho :>) and I don't see it reflected in 
conversations online.  

the same middle-class whites drive home to their middle-class American 
homes, often in an old smoky car, with single nuclear (sometimes 
abundant!) families, practicing the same ordinary lifestyle as their 
parents with a few religious terms and rite structures to the contrary.  

I don't see that their rites and ceremonies are having any sort of 
wonderful palleative effect.  perhap the Goddess has abandoned us/them.


|"some" Neo-Pagans seem to think you invented this appreciation of 
|nature stuff, 

even the previous 'natural' and 'primitive' cultures can not on the
whole be promoted as 'eco-conscious'.  many of these had lifestyles
which, if multiplied like rabbits as the Eurocatholics and Protestants
promote, would have led to the same or similar problems.


|...you decide you want to borrow what you like of tribal sacred 
|ceremonies, 

nothing wrong with that.  if they pretend to have some authority with 
respect to the tribe, then that's different.  I promote eclecticism 
and this includes stealing and borrowing from many traditions, whether 
the traditions themselves like it or not. ;>


|and then try to "insinuate": yourselves into them... by virtue of 
|your "connection to the earth".  

or perhaps because "we are all pagans, after all". :>


|...NOW, many of you are indignant that the Satanists, whether by 
|definition Pagan or NOT, are not welcome at Pagan gatherings, 

*sarcasm*
of course, Satanists are *Christian*, dammit!  and we know that pagan
and Christian don't mix.  *sarcasm off*  don't mind that most of the 
pagan rights have been integrated into that of the some Christian 
trads.  don't mind that what is today called 'Paganism' is mostly 
warmed-over Christian mysticism and mystery school spin-offs.


|...I asked if my Frater might come to a gathering; I was told that 
|not only would he not be welcome, but chances are I would have been 
|asked to leave.  

sorry Xina, not enough information here.  why was it that you would
be asked to leave?  who said this to you?  how much did they know
about you?  over the internet people will say anything.  I agree that
times are hard between the Neopagan and Satanist communities, but
many of my Neopagan friends and their groups would not have even
turned away SINCERE CHRISTIANS from attendance at rites, especially
if they were interested and wanted to participate meaningfully without
causing trouble.  

the 'without causing trouble' part becomes difficult, though, since
many Neopagans are still hip-deep in their presumptions about Satanism
and what it means.  like the Christians from whence they came they
begin projecting all manner of evils upon one known as 'Satanist'.

they manifest their very shadow and that of the Christian Leviathan
and of their greater society right onto you!  beware.  the path of
the Satanist is difficult at times!  there is no blame upon the
Neopagans for this.  eventually it will be purged from our 
consciousness and we'll move on to other developments/awakenings 
in the pure perfection of the gods.
 

|You as Wiccans/neo-pagans have no more respect for nature than 
|the Satanists do. Some of them are accomplished natural magickians 
|and herbalists, etc.  

I find that most Satanists I've met online were indeed quite
concerned about 'Nature' and investigating of (magical) technology
at times to effect this.  however, I have often seen more connection to
overt orgs of ECOLOGY among Neopagans (esp. as I've spent a batch
of time in Neopagan company) as compared to what little I've read
about or talked about with Satanists (who seem much more interested
in intellectual affairs and controversial subjects).


|>I also like the idea that -I- can connect directly to the divine, 

precisely.  this an element even in many Christian sects. ;>


|>I'm a solitary and I don't need a preacher, priest or priestess 
|>(although some I respect, others I just roll my eyes over ;-)

lots of Neopagans and other religious apparently *do* like priests
and priestesses and whatnot, sometimes even preachers!  you might
be surprised at what gets included with Neopaganism (or "Paganism"
or whatever name floats your boat).  I understand your concern and
wish you well in the definition of your religion (as I am Neopagan
I of course will oppose your limitation, and I hope you understand :>).


|...I dont however respect a lopsided world view, which IMHO is NOT 
|what Neo-paganism is about.  

of COURSE it is about that.  and it is about many other wonderful views.
Neopaganism is not doctrinal (yet).  have you failed to notice that
beautiful lopsidedness of the bulk of what gets posted to alt.pagan?
(all over the map!)


|...*most* seasoned Craft Elders DO NOT feel as you do in regards to 
|the "are Satanists Pagan" issue. 

I'm not aware of this.  from where do you draw this conclusion?  I'm 
very glad to hear of it of course.


|That phrase smacks of one recovering from Xian upbringing! ;)

accepting the Jew, the Christian, the Muslim and the Satanist into
my home and rite is a matter of perfect love and perfect trust!  if
they get out of line, banish them!  if they appear to abide the Rede,
welcome them as kindred!


|>Jana (whose totem is a dancing armadillo and a sharp toothed wild boar

|...Most Pagans seem to think thier animal is a bear or a hawk or wolf.  

my power animal is a slug.

lorax of the evul wikkunz / tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com
-------------------------------------------------------