Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nagasiva yronwode) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.newage,alt.consciousness.mysticism,alt.religion.buddhism,alt.zen,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.magick.tantra Subject: Awakening Levels? (was 'Enlightenment'...) Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),http://www.sonic.net Lines: 82 Sender: yronwode@sonic.net Message-ID: <8d91on$c28@bolt.sonic.net> References: <8d1aak$fes@bolt.sonic.net> <20000412101733.10364.00001206@ng-bj1.aol.com> Reply-To: spam@luckymojo.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.4 (NOV) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 06:21:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.224.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 955779669 208.201.224.36 (Fri, 14 Apr 2000 23:21:09 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 23:21:09 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:22745 talk.religion.newage:123783 alt.consciousness.mysticism:39828 alt.zen:169692 talk.religion.buddhism:120842 alt.magick.tantra:15271 50000414 IVom sienna555@aol.com (Sienna555): >I have found in my other magickal studies that there are "veils" that fall as >one reaches the goal of enlightenment. a popular teaching in sufism (the '1000 Veils of Allah' falling away gradually). >I have also been told (mostly by non-corporeals) that TRUE enlightenment >cannot be attained in this physical body. why do you think these non-corporeals asserted this? >So, from my own experience and what I gather from other sources, there are >levels of enlightenment, rather than one particular "goal" of becomming an >"enlightened one" in this physical realm. Am I missing anything? only that you do not explain what you think this "enlightenment" is, like most who speak about it, and why different techniques might lead to the same event/effect/state. >If it is so that there are "levels" of enlightenment, what are the >names of these levels in the Tantric system? this presumes that all approach spiritual maturation from the same exact trajectory. compare the 'Sudden Enlightenment' and 'Gradual Enlightenment' schools of Zen Buddhism as examples which seem to refute this idea. I'll use these categories below to extrapolate on my own observations, using an intentionally objectional role-playing model. speaking, as usual, from a position far outside any kind of tradition, my impression is that the taxonomy on this breaks down to something like: LVL GRADUAL APPROACH 0 Dedicated (those who have merely taken the vows of perfection) 1 Serious (a mystic, often part of some larger body and/or tradition) 2 Potentate (e.g. recognized as having great potential prior to success) 3 Master/Mistress (regarded as having attained some degree of success) 4 Demi-Hero (often a forger of new trajectories, e.g. Bodhidharma) 5 Companion (usually someone close to a Hero, like Ananda, Mary, and Ali) 6 Hero/Heroine (originators of entire platforms of achievement, e.g. Siddhartha Gautama, Padmasambhava/Yeshes Tsogyal) many suggest that there are 7 chakras, so perhaps this would correlate as you have inquired. :> LVL SUDDEN APPROACH 1 Serious (as above) 2 Master/Mistress (regarded as having attained the main objective) 3 Hero/Heroine (as above) this may reflect masonic and/or quasi-masonic notions. some HAVE suggested that there are only truly three main energy centers in the body, but there are countless bodily diagrammatics around the world. UNCHARTED VARIABLES Wild (of unknown sometimes fabulous success, e.g. buji zen monks) Wayward (finding new, controversial means of achievement, like boboroshi) Eclectic (combining and walking between social systems, at times syncretic) too often these categories are ignored because the socially-integrated mystics are considered all who are capable of attainment or worthy of historical record. >Do they correspond with the chakras, and whether or not certain >chakras are clear? I suspect that this is a rather reductionist and oversimplistic assessment, the chakras functioning as a system rather than as plumbing segments, but have no idea what traditional Tantrics think about it. namaste nagasiva -- mailto:nagasiva@luckymojo.com ; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html mailto:boboroshi@satanservice.org ; http://www.satanservice.org/ emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired