Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!in.100proofnews.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!diablo.voicenet.com!167.206.3.103.MISMATCH!news3.optonline.net!cyclone.rdc-nyc.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!cyclone.socal.rr.com!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!305be48b!not-for-mail User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Subject: Re: Tarot and Astrology (Decans, Faces and Planetary Order) From: Di-a-rama Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.astrology,alt.tarot,alt.divination,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick Message-ID: References: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 82 Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 19:09:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.185.158.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net 1073588992 64.185.158.182 (Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:09:52 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:09:52 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:45073 alt.astrology:533818 alt.tarot:121146 alt.divination:22369 alt.magick:364182 alt.pagan.magick:40143 On 1/4/04 2:13 AM, in article B2PJb.6478$XF6.144029@typhoon.sonic.net, "nagasiva" wrote: > http://members.aol.com/tonylouis/home/glossd-h.htm > > # DECANATE (DECAN): > # A division of each sign into three 10 degrees segments. There > # is a Hindu division of each sign into three decans ruled by the > # three signs of the same element. There is a Chaldean division > # of each sign into three 10 degrees faces ruled by the seven > # classical planets in Chaldean order, starting with Mars ruling > # the first Face of Aries. > # > # ... > # > # FACE: > # The weakest form of essential dignity, "like a man about to be > # turned out of doors.". Each sign is divided into three 10 degrees > # faces, and a different planet has dignity in each face of the sign. > # See Decanate. > > here we apparently have a combination of Theories B *&* E! > and yet there is distinction: Hindu decanate, Chaldean faces. Not sure if you were seeking responses as your post was a rather self-contained package... I have Anthony Louis' book "Horary Astrology Made Simple" which is mostly based on the traditional practices of 17th century English astrologer William Lilly. He refers to Decans and Faces on p. 98. While he does not cite a source for the Decan divisions or their uses, the book states as above that they are Hindu in origin. Since traditional European astrology is a patchwork of many sources, it does not surprise me that something from Hindy astrology would insinuate its way into western practice. Whether they are correct or not almost doesn't matter--Decans in the context of Horary astrology are not used to assign dignity to a planet/luminary, but Faces *are* used. Louis also states the application of Decan rulers is used by modern astrologers--I'm not sure if he is implying that it is a newly adopted modern practice, or what. However, that does not account for the reference in Agrippa you cited (Chapter XXXVI, Book II). In this chapter, Agrippa states that his sources are Egyptian, Indian and Chaldean. He then goes on to describe general talismans based on elemental properties which is probably the reason for referring to Decanates. Also, Agrippa's material (including the Decanates) generally applies toward crafting astrological talismans rather than relaying relative power to the planets in other astrological contexts. Regardless, Face is the most paltry, undesirable level of essential dignity there is--the consolation prize. (Lilly gives points: +1 for face, +2 for terms, +3 for triplicity, +4 for exaltation and +5 for rulership. Lack of essential dignity is called 'peregrine' and is worth -5 points.) Anyway, Agrippa's talismans are whole packages with several factors required to make them effective. In ch XLI, bk II (p. 386), an image of the Sun is made thus: Sun Hour 1st face of Leo Ascending with the Sun Sun ascending in exaltation (Make an image as described) From this we get: Sunrise on a Sunday when the Sun is in 1-10 degrees of Leo. If we're looking at any other traditional practices, we'll probably also make the moon waxing, not ill-dignified, and applying in a good aspect to the Sun. But the real meat of this election is how the Sun is made fortunate by sign and house placement plus hour/day rulers. Ultimately, I think application of Face rulers to Tarot cards is misleading. It takes the meaning out of context and tries to force fit it into a system that is already complete in itself. I'm not sure if this agrees with the original post--it seemed like the gist was to show how things are mindlessly perpetuated and appropriated. Perhaps the best answer to this is to try it and see if it works. Cheers, Di