From owner-fiatlvx@cmns.think.com Fri May 17 12:17:34 1996 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id MAA06415 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 12:17:33 -0700 Received: from Cmns.Think.COM.Think.COM (Cmns.Think.COM [131.239.2.100]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA25709 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 12:17:32 -0700 Received: by Cmns.Think.COM.Think.COM (4.1/Ultrix2.4-C) id AA07778; Fri, 17 May 96 15:07:16 EDT Message-Id: <199605171905.MAA05400@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Re: A *Friendly* Gematria Challenge To: fiatlvx@cmns.think.com Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 12:05:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <960516.201933.EDT.34MY2Y6@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> from "Michael J. Vokits" at May 16, 96 08:07:30 pm From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3606 Sender: owner-fiatlvx@cmns.think.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: fiatlvx@cmns.think.com Status: RO 49960517 |From: "Michael J. Vokits" <34MY2Y6@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu> |Date: Thu, 16 May 96 20:07:30 EDT |A *lot* of people find gematria to be a valid and useful method. 'valid and useful' is ambiguous without an ends toward which they sought. in this sense, to say gematria has 'validity' depends entirely on motivations of the individual and may vary if that varies in our approach to it. |...gematria only works in one's own mind, also ambiguous, for you are not saying whether it works throughout the vast number of human minds or if only in individual minds who wish to believe certain things about it, etc.... (i.e. we can self-substantiate it even though a consensus might yield that we are deluding ourselves about its truth). |...it is not a feature of the universe at large. meaningless or again ambiguous ("X is just in your mind, it doesn't really exist" works for things like pink elephants, but when you begin talking about essentially mental disciplines I'm not sure I really know what you're saying). |...is there anyone who can prove gematria is true? in order to do this we have to know what you mean by 'true' and what types of criteria you espouse which would satisfy you. 'proof' in and of itself is meaningless, as without agreement for the grounds of proof we shall never have it. I suspect you want someone to show that gematria's mechanism in some way substantiates an ontological claim, and yet the claims made by gematria are usually ones of relation, not equation or ontology. |I will gladly recant all I've said on the subject you have said little about why you think it is 'bunk' or what you are meaning to imply when you say it is 'all in your mind'. we may presume you mean 'holds no consistent meaning which transcends the mind of the person using the system', and yet then all we can do in response is present cases wherein we feel that exceptions may lie (Thelemites would present Agape/Thelema/93, for example). these types of things may be easily dismissed by the skeptical and rightly so. part of the problem is the abuse of those who've attempted to utilize a system of divination (gematria) to justify theoretical assertions (which amounts to an emotional or aesthetic appeal along the lines of which tarot cards mean what things in what places). |if anyone can give a valid explanation |of why gematria is legitimate (and "tradition" doesn't count). all systems of divination are 'legitimate' in that they may lead to reflection on the part of the individual using the tool. very infrequently does it allow one to exerience such insight that this makes possible prophecy or a claim to spiritual knowledge (beyond ourselves). | I want to know *why* the universe runs on numbers, ... Cf. Pythagoreanism. this is *one* way to see the world. |...why those numbers have to be base-10 rather than base-7 or some other |holy number. Especially, I'd like to know why language, which is |a fluid thing, is such that the rigidity of mathematics applies |to it. the whys of the mechanism of divination are difficult to isolate. numbers and letters are central to our individuated consciousness. this explains why they are valuable to use in processes of reflection (since in essence we must work through them in order to work on ourselves -- cf psychoanalysis). standards regarding mechanisms may or may not be cultural or prejudicial, and yet there may be ways they interact with the consciousness that results in certain changes and developments which the other tools never touch. nocTifer tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com