Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!netnews.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: jwrevak@home.com (James W. Revak) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick Subject: Re: Qabalah and Tarot History (was Hermetic QBL ...) Message-ID: <3c4cbfef.37824844@news> References: <3c164206.1112263@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3kYR7.12787$DD2.130432@typhoon.sonic.net> <3c195d5c.39967482@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3C193C1A.6286@luckymojo.com> <3c1a3d20.26648493@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3c31fd8b.36549594@news> <3c2322e0.13255236@news> <3c20476c.46616575@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3c263308.22348623@news> <3c2181e2.45999803@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3C219158.AFC9BBED@pacbell.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 91 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 04:52:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.21.14.129 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 1008910332 24.21.14.129 (Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:52:12 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:52:12 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:30611 alt.magick:281168 On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 07:15:54 GMT, Joseph wrote: > > >> >This assumes that there is one "true" or "perfect" set of >> >attributions, which is baloney in my opinion. > >so, ok, i hope im agreeing with you in this only in so far as i seem to >understand you seem to be supporting a non-sectarian approach to mysticism in >general and the cabbala in particular. > >if the jewish people or any one else really does posses some perfect system >ive yet to see evidence of it. considering how similar the basics are world >wide the idea that every one does it seems way more important than precisely >how they do it. > >or what they call it for that matter, there's probably evan a necessary place >and purpose for charlatans and rip off artists of any type, as we cant >perceive right with out wrong so we probably would never grapple with the >concepts of honesty with out exposure to its opposite. > What I was specifically saying or trying to say is that I believe that no popular system of Tarot-Hebrew correspondences is objectively "true" or "perfect". Therefore, for example, I see no reason to conclude that any single popular system is objectively "correct"--whether it is Lévi's system, Zain's variation on Lévi's system, the GD's system, or Crowley's variation on the GD system, etc. That's all. And I think there are at least two significant reasons why this is so: 1. Ultimately, one can't argue for the objective "truth" or "falsity" of a metaphysical (including magical) system or worldview from a strictly rational perspective. I think that, to some extent, it always comes down to a subjective judgment, lived experience, and what authority (if any) one grants to specific magi, prophets, scriptures, etc. 2. More specifically related to Tarot, is the reality that originally Tarot was *not* constructed with the Hebrew alphabet in mind. To make things more complicated, the Fool originally typically was not considered part of the series of Trumps. To make things more complicated many old Tarot decks did *not* have 22 Majors. To make things more complicated, the Fool originally typically had neither a number nor zero attached to him. To make things more complicated, occultists, including GD members, often later assigned zero to the Fool, but there's no zero in the Hebrew number system. For all these reasons, developing an objectively "correct" or "perfect" system of Tarot-Hebrew correspondences is probably impossible. Note: As I've said elsewhere in this forum recently, none of this means that Tarot-Hebrew correspondences are completely "stupid" or "unusable". You also noted above, "so, ok, i hope im agreeing with you in this only in so far as i seem to understand you seem to be supporting a non-sectarian approach to mysticism in general and the cabbala in particular." Permit me to widen the discussion. I'm not sure that it's fair to say that I support a non-sectarian approach to mysticism and Cabala. Some people, for example, may closely follow a specific school of Jewish Cabala; others, Reuchlin's Cabala; still others, Crowley's Cabala. These are sectarian approaches of sorts and I have, all things being equal, no problem with those individuals who choose any or all of these approaches. On the other hand, I'm unsure how valuable it would be to construct a genuinely nonsectarian Cabala (assuming it is possible). The advantage might be that one may arrive at certain spiritual values which transcend sundry specific schools. The disadvantage, and it's a serious one I think, is that many valuable specifics embraced by sundry specific schools, would be lost. To use a metaphor. We can look at the spectrum created by a prism held up to sunlight. It is beautiful. Each and every color from the deepest red to the darkest violet is a delight to the eye. Now, we know that we can combine all those colors and arrive at pure white. This color too has a unique beauty and enables us to note that under all the other colors of the spectrum, lies this one beautiful white. However, sadly, all the wonderful separate colors of the spectrum, green, blue, orange, yellow, etc., are gone when we view the color white. Similar stuff occurs when one tries to reduce sundry metaphysical, magical, or spiritual systems to one universal or nonsectarian system. There are both advantages and disadvantages to doing so. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JAMES W. REVAK - San Diego, CA, USA - jwrevak@home.com Villa Revak / A Tarot Web Site: http://jwrevak.tripod.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------