Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.tarot,alt.divination Subject: Re: Tarot and Qabalah (was ...) References: <3C9DA470.DB6@luckymojo.com> <7Whn8.6969$44.54605@typhoon.sonic.net> <10cff505.0203251521.4bb7c151@posting.google.com> From: nagasiva Reply-To: spam@yronwode.com User-Agent: nn/6.6.0 Lines: 131 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:06:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.242.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1017101195 208.201.242.18 (Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:06:35 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:06:35 PST Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:32076 alt.magick:294477 alt.tarot:103107 alt.divination:18992 50020325 VI nagasiva: >> what some people call their tarot was based on what they called their qabalah. eyeofhoor@yahoo.com (Prophet 718): > If there were a positive source for identifying where the meanings of the > cards originate are you suggesting that there is a single set of meanings which may be attached to "the cards" (i.e. the decks manufactured by various occultists)? I gathered that a comparison of Crowley's "Book of Thoth", for example, with Waite's "Pictorial Key to the Tarot" will yield a slight variety of differences and overlaps in meaning. this is what we would expect given the divergence of the authors in question and their ability to fabricate novel magical systems as artists and occultists. then again, if Crowley based his stuff on the Golden Dawn (some of which he certainly did), he may have had Waite's expressions (as well as Regardie's and anyone else publishing on the subject) in mind when he issued his own in his guide-book. > I could see claiming the Tarot is not based on Qabala. it is far easier to notice the complexity of the Kabbalah and that no single symbol-system could incorporate the diversity of its content. what Crowley or whoever dumbed down into "their Qabalah" could of course substitute and present accordingly, but this is no surprise. > There are however enough similarities between the symbols of > the Tarot and Qabala this is hardly surprising, given the intent of those creating decks. > that at the very least a valid hypothesis can be formed demonstrating > a relationship between the two systems. this is why I responded the way that I did (that what some identified as their qabalah did form the foundation for what they identified as their tarot). note that this is quite different than analyzing the outrageous expressions of fabricators like Eliphas Levi in his "Transcendental Magic" or Papus in his "Tarot of the Bohemians", which some of these same magicians decided to use as 'part of their tarot' as well as 'part of their qabalah'. there's no crime in this, but as it competes with other religiomagical systems like Judaism's Kabbalah, it has the ring of the orientalism present in other aspects of their work as well as that of their predecessors. > The connection between the symbolism of the trumps and some of the > cosmographic components of the Qabala is obvious, meaning the zodiac, > planets, elements, etc. integral, very likely, in occult tarot decks, agreed, though with arguable success as regards the composition and 'fit' (we've been analyzing this 'fit' lately in alt.magick and alt.tarot from the standpoint of how Waite's deck and expressions compare with that of the Golden Dawn (significant differences present!). it is also very important that the association-schemes amongst occultists do *not* accord with one another (an argument against any kind of underlying 'necessity' in the symbol-systems they constructed). > Early in my study of the Tarot I asked the inevitable question: > where do the meanings of the small cards derive from? A close > study of the meanings of the small cards in relation the numbers > on them indicates a possible connection with Qabala. this is a VERY good question, especially as it centers on any particular author or deck-describer. might Waite have been inspired by fortune-teller decks, for example? quite possible. it seems worthwhile to consider whether he was inspired by the art of alchemists too ('emblems', see such works as "Michael Maier's Atalanta Fugiens: Links with the Archetypal Symbolism of the Vault" for some Rosicrucian graphics of comparisons). > According to Crowley there are no contradictions above the abyss on > the Tree of Life. he got the idea from von Rosenroth, mostly likely. I doubt that he much to add from direct experience as a mystic (because it seems very plain that his mystico-magical system failed him). > He also postulates that as the numbers increase in size from 1 > to 10 in relation to the stations on the Tree, they steadily > degrade.... again, my impression is that Crowley's is mere redaction of Christianized and Hermeticized Jewish sources, and that he is relatively nonauthoritative to any outside his cult, especially where anything mystical is concerned (because he demonstrates in his diaries his abject spiritual immaturity). > ...The meanings of the cards numbered 10 are in reverse order > to those numbered 9, consisting of three negative aspects and > one positive. The prevailing pattern is impressive enough to > consider the smaller arcana as possibly deriving its meanings > from Qabala. it is far easier to merely take what these authors have said about the decks which they've contracted artists to help them create (with Waite, Pamela Colman-Smith, with Crowley, Freida Harris) and see how this fits with their other expressions on the nature of "the Holy Kabbalah" (in Waite's case, "Qabalah" with Crowley; again, selected micro-versions of what they knew). I think we're making about the same point, saying less about the origins of Tarot (which most agree were in an Italian card game called 'Tarocci'), and more about how any particular occultists may have constructed their decks. the same might be claimed or analyzed regarding the modern constructions of tarot decks. I have in my own creation of a tarot deck used Taoist elements and penta- and decimal symbol associations (in part to allow for a more modern and scientific presentation, but also because I find it more elegant than the Aristotlean quaternals). it might be said to "integrate my QBL" as long as "my QBL" only includes my circle-line-constructions that identify as a "Tree of Life" (on a tetraktys or tetrahedron and theories surrounding number and letters). it is no surprise when an artist chooses from what she wishes to be inspired in her creation of the art, whether that be something she calls "her Qabalah" or "her Qablahblah". n a B g l b a e e s s a i s s v e t a d ! @yronwode.com