Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.divination,alt.tarot,alt.magick Subject: Origin of Sm-Wt Small Cards Scenes/Meanings References: <20020325173649.05619.00000109@mb-cd.aol.com> From: nagasiva Reply-To: spam@yronwode.com User-Agent: nn/6.6.0 Lines: 51 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 06:21:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.242.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1019629269 208.201.242.18 (Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:21:09 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:21:09 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:32414 alt.divination:19227 alt.tarot:104217 alt.magick:298067 50020423 VIom kals@ DAy2y2y2yyk2221 Pearlz : > I just have trouble finding a meaning without the QBL because > the minor arcana cards all look so much alike to me. Like, what > would be the diff between the 7 of wands and the 8 of wands? > I'd be lost. I'm not convinced of any particular historic progression on this point of Small Cards and I've heard some inspiring contentions as regards the origins and consistency of the set thereof. here follows a brief table of associations with the cards you have selected, identifying their source (7/8 Wands/Clubs/Rods only in 'right' rather than 'inverse' meanings): SOURCE 7 8 Book T (Regardie "GD, p. 546.) Valour Swiftness Alliette (LWB 1969, p. 45-7.) Journey Fruitless negotiations Parlour Sibyl (LWB 1979, JMSimon) Minor $ gain Disappointment(F)/Hope(M) Dummett (Encyclopedia, 1978) Success, gain Swift activity; speed LenormanD (LWB, n.d.) Loss, theft Enemy, resistance Mlle Lenormand (LWB #194115) Theft Enemies Rider-Waite LWB Success, gain Swift activity; speed [NOTE: (F) => Female Querent; (M) => Male Querent.] in the playing-card decks they were Mountain (Loss) and Mice (Theft), while in tarot they were geometric or had some scene depicted (as in the Smith-Waite deck with its warrior against 7 (Valour) and 8 wands extended before us at a river basin (Swiftness). why someone would get the impression of swiftness from that lazy-looking river (8) is beyond me. maybe the 8 wands are flying like broomsticks. it seems easily interpreted that the contending warrior may have to maintain his position of success and gain by virtue of battle, combat (7). I'd suggest that the way to remember any significance of any card is to construct an elaborate story describing the scene depicted, or using the objects placed in the card. this is to what I was getting in making my Stickman Tarot -- raw symbolism of number and shape, a kind of mini- malism which I've seen included in some of the decks composited in books like that by Dummett. I don't see that there is a real connection between these Lenormand Playing Card decks and the Smith-Waite/GD Small Card meanings. maybe I'm missing something with this test (exceptions?), but it seems to be a completely different contextual framework between the two types of cards. I'll have to make a closer comparison and attempt to get more information from those who contend a direct relationship, such as sri catyananda, apparently. nagasiva Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.divination,alt.tarot,alt.magick Subject: Re: Origin of Sm-Wt Small Cards Scenes/Meanings References: <20020325173649.05619.00000109@mb-cd.aol.com> From: nagasiva Reply-To: spam@yronwode.com User-Agent: nn/6.6.0 Lines: 36 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 07:09:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.242.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1019632177 208.201.242.18 (Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:09:37 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:09:37 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:32415 alt.divination:19230 alt.tarot:104218 alt.magick:298072 50020423 VIom kals@ DAy2y2y2yyk2221 proven! nagasiva writes: > SOURCE 7 8 > Book T (Regardie "GD, p. 546.) Valour Swiftness > Alliette (LWB 1969, p. 45-7.) Journey Fruitless negotiations > Parlour Sibyl (LWB 1979, JMSimon) Minor $ gain Disappointment(F)/Hope(M) > Dummett (Encyclopedia, 1978) Success, gain Swift activity; speed this should be Stuart Kaplan (Encycl., 1978) Success, gain Swift activity; speed > LenormanD (LWB, n.d.) Loss, theft Enemy, resistance > Mlle Lenormand (LWB #194115) Theft Enemies > Rider-Waite LWB Success, gain Swift activity; speed > [NOTE: (F) => Female Querent; (M) => Male Querent.] >in the playing-card decks they were Mountain (Loss) and Mice (Theft), >while in tarot they were geometric or had some scene depicted (as in >the Smith-Waite deck with its warrior against 7 (Valour) and 8 wands >extended before us at a river basin (Swiftness). why someone would get >the impression of swiftness from that lazy-looking river (8) is beyond >me. maybe the 8 wands are flying like broomsticks. it seems easily >interpreted that the contending warrior may have to maintain his >position of success and gain by virtue of battle, combat (7). >like that by Dummett. s/b Kaplan btw, Kaplan seems to indicate that tarot decks didn't have scenes in them prior to the Smith-Waite tarot. is this true or what? nagasiva