Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail From: boboroshi@satanservice.org (SOD of the CoE) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.christnet.demonology,alt.magick,alt.magick.goetia,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic Subject: Re: When summoning/talking to a spirit Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),http://www.sonic.net Lines: 236 Sender: yronwode@sonic.net Message-ID: <8car0i$ppk@bolt.sonic.net> References: <8bpcf0$n9h@bolt.sonic.net> Reply-To: spam@luckymojo.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.4 (NOV) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:21:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.224.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 954789705 208.201.224.36 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 12:21:45 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 12:21:45 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:22472 alt.christnet.demonology:10510 alt.magick:186983 alt.magick.goetia:351 alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic:21115 50000403 IVom boboroshi: >>the dedication and directed will of the magician. religious faith >>gives the mage sufficient coherence of will that some spirits will >>not attempt to breach this for their own purposes. not only this, >>a firmly directed will at the service of a delusional mage will >>actually CREATE a replica of the spirit she is attempting to call. >>the less experienced will not understand this and presume that >>they have achieved contact. this is one of the reasons that some >>will evoke *to visible manifestation*, since they will be able to >>discern the difference between their typical perceptual skills, >>imagination, and an unusual phenomenon. it is also a reason that >>some magicians will use gematria to ferret out 'confirmation' of >>the identity of those with whom they speak (why correlations in >>gematria could not be subconsciously generated we are not told). "Enigma" : >But, without visual or audible confirmation that you've summoned a >spirit/demon/ghost (etc.) how is the experienced mage able to differentiate >between (possible) delusion (your belief has caused you to answer your own >questioins for example?) and reality (whether you've actually summoned a >"presense" or not)? having experience, she is capable of discerning the exact difference between wish-fantasy and an active intelligence not the product of hir conscious mind. having been exposed to a variety of states of consciousness and communications with nonordinary entities, she is able with a minimum of effort to identify its character and quality. >>fashioned magical objects can be given power of their own, and some >>have this power from the very beginning (their herb or mineral has >>usually been identified as potent and reputed for this use). neo- >>platonic or transcendentalist magicians will contend that all >>magical objects only have the power you give them, but this is >>self-aggrandizement and without basis. >This sounds rather peculiar. Since (presumably) it was man to first create >these objects as a means of self-protection when dealing with these forces, >how does one separete an exaggeration from what really has meaning, if the >power is that in which the magician bestows to the object? the first magical objects were probably *found*, not made. they were wands or staves obtained in the forest, stones used for activities which may have been as much practical as magical in nature (due to the infusement of the individual in the world magical). the way to discern what magical objects have power is by testing them. >>when creating such a magical amulet or charm, they should appear >>to be resonating in the astral plane if you've the sight for it, and >>they might feel potent, vibrating strongly to your touch. if your >>skills are particularly developed it may also have some kind of >>personality and be able to speak with you, even about the success >>of your empowerment. >I'm not entierly sure I understand what you mean by they should be >resonating in the astral plane? by resonating I mean vibrating, humming with power, somehow indicative of potency, activation, or energy. the astral plane, by my understanding, is not much if any different than the world of imagination. it is a kind of 'vision' that one may develop or attune to that allows symbolism and subjective experience to influence it strongly. >But this does sound very perplexing, for example, not >only does the object you create gain the ability of some type of locomotion not locomotion, but vibrancy, an indication of intensity. >...it also gains some type of sentience, that enables communication >between the object and yourself? Have you discovered how this possible? I have discovered it to be possible, if that is all you mean. if you are asking *how* it is possible, I think there are many explanations which satisfactorily account for the phenomenon, and their character depend entirely on from what perspective you are approaching the cosmos. from the most materialistic, it could be the personal expression of one's own subconscious mind, given a screen of projection and a personality within the imagination of the mage. it is not so unlikely that this is the case if you consider that even ordinary human beings cannot be found to have a "personality" or a "soul" so much as be ascribed these qualities by individuals with whom they interact. there is no reason that such qualities could not also be ascribed to non-humans. this happens all the time with pets and wild animals. on the other end of the descriptive spectrum, the sentience is a product of intensified magical energy resident within the object, making it possible not only for it to gain some ability to communicate but to develop a personality in the sense which we usually mean it. >...when creating such an object, from what source do you use in >designing the object? you can use almost any source you find valuable. there are good descriptions in grimoires, some books on occult practices may have suggestions, books on anthropology can be helpful. I've even found that role-playing games can be helpful sources. people who have experience with the fabrication of magical objects can be good sources of information, especially if they are willing to take the time to familiarize themselves with your situation. nonordinary contacts like spirits guides, gods, angels, spirits, demons, djinn, or imps, can also be good sources for the design of magical tools. as with ordinary human people, just be sure that you can trust them before they contribute something which will be of extreme importance to your stability. you can become a source of such design yourself, especially if you take the time to develop your knowledge of how magic works, your ability to see into nonordinary planes of existence, and can think in a way that is conducive to creating the Magical Link. >That is to say, if you were to use the design from what was previously >created (since presumably effective, as to why it would appear >in a book), there is no reason I can think of that someone's magical record could not reflect with accuracy a tool design that would also work for another in a published text or an internet file or post. >you are able to use the "blue prints" (if you will) for the >object, hows its created, and how it should look. there are published formulae for these wholly constructed amulets or talismans, of course. I would reiterate that there are other types of magical tools which can be found rather than fashioned, and these include herbs, roots, wands, staves, minerals, and a number of other items in this category (some of which might appear to be and even function as completely ordinary objects for those unaware of their properties). >>it can be, like a battery, operating for the purpose that you >>have designated it. talismans like the pentacle or some other >>geometric figure program easily this way. elemental or >>planetary figures can tweak it one way or another also. >I see. So you dont believe that it really matters that this object you create >for ...protection, really matters on how its designed, just that it you >believe in its power (which in turn gives IT power)? to the contrary, I think that it matters a GREAT DEAL, yet I do not think there are absolutes in terms of designs. it is a kind of combination effect, the specific design of tool combining with the character and consciousness of the mage. again we're talking here about fashioned magical tools. I don't believe that belief is the primary activator of magical tools, though it may be helpful or set a context wherein more important factors become available (attention to detail, for example). >>relative >>power between two adversaries may be affected by an amulet, but >>having one doesn't necessarily guarantee that one is more powerful >>than what one is summoning. >...how is one able to determine the absolute capabilities of the >being one is attempting to summon, for how is one able to >determine they will have sufficiant ...protection(?) against >that in which they are summoning? usually with respect to the source of information one is using to glean the data about the being summoned. in other words, you should either have a great deal of confidence in your own capacity to withstand or ameliorate any kind of aggression (cf. "Moonchild" by Crowley for the two poles of attitude in Cyril and Simon and their relative merits) or place confidence in the grimoire or other source of information about the strength and character of the entity you intend to contact/summon. you could also have good allies or protectorate guardians, spirits, or gods. >>because the power of domination is not the same as the power that >>these spirits are supposed to have (secret knowledge, abilities >...how is one able to determine the being, >being summoned does in fact have the abilities one seeks? almost the same method as above. either through reputation and referral or through interaction and demonstration of this skill. generally don't accept people's word for contentions of extraordinary claims, asking for demonstrations and skeptically reviewing the results prior to making any kind of agreements. this should go as much for human beings as for spirit beings. >How can one ensure when creating a pact with such, they will be >granted that in which they are after? usually those who talk about pacts from which one benefits and who want to "ensure" the faithful followthrough of such a pact will coerce, threaten, extort, and generally torture the spiritual entity in question. I do not recommend this. instead I suggest that they be offered something which they want in trade, such as worship, offerings, or whatever they decide is important to them. if you are willing to ask them to do something for you, why not do something for them in return? this is the nature of all respectable contracts. if what they ask is repulsive to you or too high a price, then I doubt they would mind much if you haggled the price down. >Would not we have already pushed the limits after hundreds if not >thousands of years of ... enslaving these beings to do our bidding? >I would be concerned as to just how tolorable these beings could be. I agree strongly with this and recommend against enslavement. as far as I am concerned, I will help them to escape such influences and enable them to seek their restitution or revenge from such mistreatment. >Perhaps such titles as "Demon" and "Witch" or more metaphoric than a >description given to an entirely different species? A Demon for example, >might describe ones personality as someone being very hateful, callous, and >easily provoked. A Witch being simular, only usualy given to a female (having >both greatly exaggerated over time, with many different cultures and >religions)? these are typical 'demonizations' of spirits and wise old women. the intent was to displace and disenfranchize them from social authority (Christian, typically, but not always). in some cases (with the tempestuous and caustic ones) this was valuable for all concerned (as when the society outlaws murder). but in many cases an alienation occurred in which spirits themselves (as compared to the retinue of Jehovah) or magical women (compared to the men of the clergy) were eshewed and described as pests, dangers, and centers of deception. consider the source. blessed beast! boboroshi Satanic Outreach Director, Church of Euthanasia (http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/) -- mailto:nagasiva@luckymojo.com ; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html mailto:boboroshi@satanservice.org ; http://www.satanservice.org/ emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired